Transcript of interview with Ross Grimmett

A transcript of an interview, recorded as part of the Dunedin Public Libraries' oral history project on the effects on the Dunedin community of poliomyelitis outbreaks in the 1940s and 1950s. Interviewee is Mr Ross Grimmett, who was at school in the late 1940s. Mr Grimmett did not contract the disease but has recollections of classmates who did contract polio, and of life during the epidemic.

Transcript of interview with Ross Grimmett for the Dunedin Public Libraries He Purapura Marara Scattered Seeds Polio Project

Recording identification: this is an interview with Mr Ross Grimmett on Wednesday 18th May 2022. The interview is for the Dunedin Public Libraries He Purapura Marama Scattered Seeds Digital Archive Polio oral history Project. The interviewer is Kay Mercer. The interview is being recorded at Ross' home, Melrose Street, Dunedin. It is recorded on a Zoom H5 digital recorder using Countryman Isomax clip-on microphones. The time is 11am.

ABSTRACT

00:51    Introduction and recording permission

02:08    Ross' early memories of the polio epidemic in the 1940s; schools were shut down in 1947;             lots of school pupils affected, but no obvious outbreak in Mornington where Ross grew up

05:08    Ross doesn't recall there being any isolation measures, but does remember some             restrictions - there was a worry that the Otago Centennial might not be able to go ahead,           but restrictions lifted just in time

07:08    Ross recalls the correspondence school and lessons on radio 4ZB; otherwise no loss of       freedom - could go out to play with other children after he'd completed his home school    lessons; recalls a trickle of polio most summers and a friend with callipers and crutches

10:40    Ross considers some of the public health awareness measures - washing hands, Bertie Germ

14:10    Ross remembers having his tonsils out in 1941 - the tonsils were merely trimmed in those             days, rather than complete removal, so tonsilitis was recurring

15:00    Recollections of the Salk Vaccine - Ross was in his first year at Otago University in 1961 when the vaccine was rolled out, so didn't receive the vaccine - mostly given to school children

17:20    Ross recalls the Otago Centennial celebrations in 1948 and the relief that polio restrictions         had been removed so it could go ahead - impressive procession, thousands attended

21:11    Ross reminisces about learning to swim, and how the pool in the Octagon was used as a   public bathhouse

22:07    Ross talks about researching his memoir; recalls great freedom as a boy, but also very strict discipline at school and compliance with authority - people did as they were told - roll out of              vaccine was compulsory

25:06    Ross talks about how children had access to too much sugar and no floridation, so teeth        were in poor condition - contrasts with his own children who grew up with floridated water        and less sugar in their diet and have good teeth

27:33    Ross talks about being born and growing up in Dunedin - wartime diet was good - doesn't recall ever going hungry - parents had grown up in the Depression, but        mother kept Ross            well fed during the War - but many boys at school were small for their age

31:01    Discussion of Ross' book, "A Memoir - Memories and Events in and Around Dunedin, and the            Rest of the World 1937 to 1957 by Ross Grimmett" and the chapter all on "polio and other           pestilences in childhood", which is a valuable resource on the subject

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00:51

Kay: Right, so I'll just say I'm here in the home of Ross Grimmett, who has very kindly agreed to submit, if that's the right word, to an interview. You've agreed to take part in an interview.

Ross: Yeah, definitely.

Kay: For our polio project. And before we go any further I want to confirm that you understand that this material is being recorded for archival purposes primarily, for the Dunedin Public Libraries' He Purapura Marara Scattered Seeds Digital Archive Polio Project. The recording will be held in the He Purapura Marara Scattered Seeds Digital Archive www.dunedin.recollect.co.nz which I'll henceforth call 'the Archive'. A copy of the recording may be held on repository in digital form by Dunedin Public Libraries. Material held in the Archive is freely accessible by the general public, as specified in the recording agreement which I gave you earlier, and which you have kindly signed. Are you happy with that and are you willing to continue with the recording?

Ross: Very happy.

Kay: Thank you, Mr Grimmett, that's wonderful. So I have a few questions regarding the epidemic. Are you happy for me to go through them or do you just want to start?

Ross: No, go for your life.

Kay: Ok. Well, I'm just curious, how did you first hear about the epidemic as a boy?

02:08

Ross: The epidemic as a boy?

Kay: Well, were you a boy when you heard about it first? How old were you?

Ross: Well, I was familiar with polio because virtually every class I was in at Mornington School, and that was from 1942, there was at least one person in calipers.

Kay: Goodness.

Ross: There'd been obviously previous outbreaks. I know there was a very bad outbreak in 1925, but I think from then on a few young kids were getting polio, maybe every summer.

Kay: Ah, it was a summer thing?

Ross: And so there was a boy I remember particularly, because he was so much bigger than the rest of us with double calipers on his legs, and he walked on two sticks and dragged his feet. And I suddenly thought well, he was bigger than us because he probably missed perhaps a couple of years' school, and he was probably two years older than we tinies.

Kay: Yes, that makes sense, doesn't it?

Ross: So certainly it was very obvious in Morning School where I was, and I don't know how many there were there, but it wasn't just one person.

Kay: No. And how old were you then?

Ross: Well, at that stage... I started school in 19... May 1942.

Kay: Right, yes.

Ross: Ok, so I was at Mornington School 'til late '47, then I went to Macandrew Intermediate for two years, and then Otago Boys 1950.

Kay: So it obviously a common ailment?

Ross: Well, it seemed to be... well, it was an obvious ailment, yeah. I mean there were all sorts of other ones that were on, because we had ah... I think innoculation for diptheria, maybe scarlet fever, but we got everything else. I mean, I had whooping cough and mumps and measles and impertigo, and you know the whole gamut that we went through in those days.

Kay: Yes. But you avoided polio yourself? You didn't succumb?

Ross: I avoided it yeah.

Kay: That's good. Yeah. So when did it become real for you? When did you start to realise that this is quite serious, and...?

Ross: Well, yeah I mean I realised it by seeing these kids and feeling really sorry for them, because they were... you know they were sort of out of a lot of school life you know, the activities and so on. But, umm, it was when the schools were shut down, ah late 1947, that it became obvious there was something. Although it wasn't obvious in the community of Mornington at all.

Kay: Right.

Ross: At all. And in fact I was wracking my brains and I don't remember being stuck in the house for four months over the summer.

Kay: Ok.

Ross: And I'm sure that, you know, I was a young active kid, I probably did go out and play with friends from time to time in the street, which we did, or along at the park.

Kay: Mmm, so there wasn't isolation as such? But you noticed it because the school had closed?

05:08

Ross: No. There wasn't isolation. But we did, you know, have the correspondence lessons set up and so on and there were quite a few things that we couldn't go to. And perhaps later I'll mention about the end of it, because it was the Centennial celebrations in Otago.

Kay: Ah.

Ross: And we were not originally going to be allowed to go to them. But they stopped just in time to go to the procession and the fireworks, yeah.

Kay: That must have been quite a celebration, yeah.

Ross: Yeah.

Kay: Ah, well, we'll come to that, that's good. So how did you feel when you realised polio was spreading in New Zealand, and how did your family react to that?

Ross: Well, I don't really know. I mean, I... it was just something different. We'd finished the school year, I'm sure, in '47, because I had my full report card for the year, which my mother had kept. And, ah and so that must have been... I don't know when we shut down, but it must have been no earlier than November. I'm not sure of the dates. You probably know. So, I don't think we missed much school in that particular year. And the following year it would have been late March early April that I started at Macandrew. Would normally have been February. So I don't I don't remember being aware of it being dangerous to be out and catching this thing, ah at all.

Kay: So there's no sense of fear. You didn't...?

Ross: No, it wasn't fear. There was the... ah, the fact that we had a different routine. We had the correspondence lessons started to arrive and, ah, and so forth. And there was quite a bit of stuff on the radio as well.

Kay: So how did your family cope with home schooling?

07:08

Ross: Well, ah my mother was possibly helpful. My father was the bright one. My poor mother had left school at the age of 12, and was sent to work in a department store, 'cause it the Depression.

Kay: Goodness me!

Ross: And my father had had... got his senior free place at  Otago Boys, but at the age of 14 he had to leave school and go and work. So he was a frustrated scholar. And my mother was possibly was too. So I don't know how much help she was able to give. Ah, he was still working of course. I remember the correspondence lessons arriving. And they were... sort of... I vaguely remember fuzzy blue print, with probably a bander machine or one of those... ah, duplicators. And they came, I presume, from the Department of Education. But there were also things on radio. And whether that was 4ZB, which was the main one we listened to, or 4YA which I presume was operating and would have been the national one at that stage. Ah, but they were sort of more general things, and the, umm, the ones that came [...] style were things we had to write down, or and so forth. But that didn't take up... maybe they took up a couple of hours each day, and I can't remember not going out to play afterwards.

Kay: [laughs] So you probably didn't feel hard done by, having home school.

Ross: I don't remember being enclosed. And I would have thought I would have remembered that. Yeah, I just don't... something I've been... I just can't... can't tell you.

Kay: Yeah, it would have stuck with you, I'm sure. Yeah.

Ross: Yeah.

Kay: So, do you remember the polio epidemic moving into the '50s as you got older? Do you remember later years? People...

Ross: Later years, well, we talked about it, and I think, you know once the innoculation arrived, there was a lot more talk about it then. I think it became much more obvious to us.

Kay: Ah, interesting.

Ross: Just how dangerous it had been. I mean... in the 19... I think 1925, I did look up the figures at the time I was writing this thing, and I can't remember what they were, but I think there were a lot of kids in 1925 got it.

Kay: Yes.

Ross: And I think it was perhaps just a trickle most summers after that. And I don't know how many got it in the time we were shut down. Would you have... ah, maybe you don't?

Kay: I don't have those figures to hand, but yes it will be interesting to compare, won't it?

Ross: Yeah, I mean I've had a friend, ah, I taught Chemistry Department most of my life, and Bob, my friend, was also there, but he had it. Ah, and he mainly got it in his legs, but had a bit in the lungs too, so it did affect his health in later life.

Kay: That seems to be the way with polio. It has had, from the people we've been speaking to as part of this project, they're starting to feel the effects of it more now, as they grow older, than they did perhaps when they were younger.

Ross: Yeah.

Kay: Yeah. It really had had long-term impact, yeah.

Ross: I'd say so. Yeah, no it was a pretty awful disease, yeah.

10:40

Kay: Cruel. Very cruel. So what precautions, if any, did you or your family take to protect yourselves?

Ross: Look I don't remember. And that's why I thought... I thought I was still allowed to go out and play, but I had a friend who lived next door, who was about four years older than me, and his dad was the local pharmacist. I'm pretty sure I played with Murray during that time.

Kay: Yeah.

Ross: Umm, but maybe, you know, there was just the two of us and they felt comfortable that we weren't catching it from anyone else. I'm sure I went to the park and had a swing, and... and things. I don't know if we played cowboys and indians in the local bush or cricket in the street. I mean, the streets were, well, most of the Mornington streets were still gravel, and ah... except the main streets were tar-sealed, and so... there were hardly any cars around, ah even in those days. Ah, particularly during the War, of course, petrol had been...

Kay: Rationed.

Ross: Rationed completely. Only the doctor got the petrol. And, ah... no, but I thought... by the time I was... yeah, no I don't remember You hardly ever saw a car. I mean the... the milkman still came with horse and cart and delivered at the gate. And the coalman did the same. And, ah and so on. And the postman walked. [laughs]

Kay: Yes, in those days. Up the hills.

Ross: Yeah, that's right.

Kay: Yeah. So you don't remember... sort of posters or advertisements or information campaigns?

Ross: I don't remember posters. I remember all of the health posters earlier in the War, or perhaps at the same time and there were a whole series of posters which emphasised Bertie Germ... keep away from Bertie Germ. And some of them were eat your greens, you know, they were trying to encourage people to grow vegetables and eat your greens. But Bertie Germ was a strange, mis-shapen inverted pear-shaped character with missing teeth. And, ah... he was pretty horrible. And he was always on the walls of the dental clinics. Whereas it wasn't Bertie Germ that was killing us, it was our mothers who gave us too much sugar. [laughter] And, ah... Bertie Germ was, ah... in fact I think, pinched from the Squander Bug in England, who appeared on their posters. Of course they were trying to save everything there. And Squander Bug eventually was drawn in these posters with swastikas all over him. And so Bertie Germ became Bertie German when they started to do it here. so Bertie Germ was the thing that gave us polio, but I don't remember any specific polio posters. But then, of course, I was only 9 or something like, 9 or 10.

Kay: And that's what resonated with you, the nice simple, Bertie Germ, keep clean.

Ross: Mmm, that... Bertie Germ lasted for a lot of years. I think he was still in the dental clinics at a later time.

Kay: Yeah. Good. Were you affected personally by the disease and how... so friends or... no?

Ross: No, no. I had nothing. I had everything else that was going.

Kay: Yeah. Yeah. And do you have any experiences of the hospitals or medical care?

14:10

Ross: Yeah, I... well, I went to hospital to have my tonsils out in 1941, and I still have the little typed form that said I was allowed to go. And, ah, I had...

Kay: Ah, so you had to have permission to go to the hospital?

Ross: Yeah, it was the appointment.

Kay: Right, ok.

Ross: The appointment came, and it was just a tiny little thing about six inches long by an inch wide, that came throug the post. And I had my tonsils out under chloroform, which was still being used. And, ah... I was pretty sick after it, because chloroform makes you sick. Ah, and the of course they only used to snip the tonsils off in those days. And so I continued to get tonsilitis for the rest of my life with the stumps that were left behind.

Kay: Oh, no!

Ross: Yeah, so I was in hospital at that time. And that's... yeah, it was quite a lot of years later before I ever got back there.

15:00

Kay: Well, that's good. Ah, how did you hear about the Salk vaccination?

Ross: Well, I probably didn't remember it was Salk vaccination. Although that was certainly advertised later. But it was organised, as far as I know, through the schools. And, ah... I assume that we actually had it. A lot of our vaccinations were done at school, ah rather than with the doctor.

Kay: So how did your... did your family... can you remember any sense of elation when your family finally were able to get you vaccinated?

Ross: I don't remember about... I don't know if the grown-ups had it at all, did they?

Kay: No.

Ross: No, they would have only given it to children.

Kay: Yes. I imagine there would have been a sense of relief for them?

Ross: Possibly was. I just don't know. I mean my... my mother always worried about everything, and ah... and you know tried to make sure I was... but the trouble was the... the family medication system was through her mother, who was addicted to sulphur and molasses and castor oil and things, for whatever you had wrong with you.

Kay: Oooh, oh dear! [laughter]

Ross: It was actually better to be... be sick than medicated!

[laughter]

Kay: Wonderful. And, umm, so you remember it was being distributed through school?

Ross: Well, of course I'd left school by the time it was distributed, 'cause I would have been at university by 1963.

Kay: Ah, ok. So you didn't have it. Right, so you didn't have the vaccination.

Ross: I wouldn't have had the vaccination. Well, I don't think I would have. It was '63?

Kay: Well, I think it was '61 when they started rolling it out.

Ross: '61, well see, I... Otago Boys I was 1955 to '60, and then at university first year was '61. So, unless we had it at university... and I do not remember... it's possible we did. But then maybe I was too old to to worry about it.

Kay: Mmm, it was primarily children and teens, wasn't it?

Ross: Yeah, see I'd have been 19 at that stage.

Kay: Mmm, so you kept safe throughout the epidemic. That was good.

Ross: Yeah.

Kay: So, do you think, having lived through the polio epidemic, do you think that's prepared you for the current pandemic, COVID-19?

17:20

Ross: I don't think so. I don't think it impinged on my thinking as much as it perhaps should have. Maybe I was at the wrong age.

Kay: No. Yes, 'cause you were a wee boy.

Ross: I was a wee boy. I do remember not being allowed to get involved in the Centennial celebrations. And I really liked that, and I was delighted when... 'cause I was a stamp collector, and of course it was important to get the first day covers of the Otago Centennial stamps. And we used to have to go and line up at the Chief Post Office in those days, and buy the envelopes and the stamps you'd get the first day. And in fact the regulations allowed us finally to do that.

Kay: Right.

Ross: And then on the 23rd March they had the big procession through the street, and the fireworks display, which we could all attend. And that was, you know, a great relief.

Kay: Wonderful. Do you remember how you found out that you could attend?

Ross: Ah, I assume it was advertised over the radio as much as anything. We tended to... my mother always had 4ZB on the air. I don't think she listened much to 4YA, but... of course, 4ZB had Aunt Daisy and all the good, umm... ah, serials like "Dr Paul" and "Portia Faces Life". They were meant to, ah accompany housework, I'm sure.

Kay: [laughs] Of course. So, what were the celebrations like? They must have been...

Ross: It was a very impressive procession. I remember the Victory procession in '46. In fact I actually had arrived on the Woolworths float that day, but there was virtually nothing to decorate the trucks in '46.

Kay: Ah, because of rationing.

Ross: And so they had tinsel and people dress up and... you know, a couple of bands. But the Centennial one there were amazing floats made of flowers and all sorts of stuff.

Kay: Yes, and what year was that?

Ross: '48.

Kay: 1948.

Ross: So yeah, that... that was... March '48, 23rd March '48 was when the... was it the Philip Laing or the Wycliffe, the first one that arrived in port? It was one of the two.

Kay: Ah, yes, I'm not sure. I think it was the Wycliffe, wasn't it, yes.

Ross: And ah, yeah, and so that and then I'm pretty sure that the, umm, fireworks display was out at, ah Kettle Park or one of those places out there. But it was... it was pretty impressive.

Kay: And a lot of people attended no doubt?

Ross: Ah, everyone lined the streets, you know. That was, umm... that was the biggest procession until the Queen came in '53 virtually.

Kay: And I suppose everyone had that sense of relief that they'd got to the end, or they were coming to the end.

Ross: They probably did. I would think that, you know in those days there were... the husband worked, the wife stayed at home. But there would have been some places where the mother also was working. And I don't know how those families coped although they may have been multi-family houses. There were some pretty poor people in Mornington, ah at that stage. And I, you know I can still remember, ah kids coming to school barefoot all year round, and ah... you know, just wearing skimpy dress or whatever. And I know all of us were darned within and inch of our lives. [laughter] You know, because you could only get wool during the War. I mean there was no cotton, and... and in fact, you know, my main claim to having Hitler lose was putting up with woollen underwear for a number of years.

Kay: [laughs] And did you have a woollen swimsuit?

21:11

Ross: Woollen swimsuit? Yeah, they would have been, they sagged. [laughter] Yeah, no it was a while before I got to... 'cause there were no swimming pools in Mornington. Ah, I'd learned to swim, in theory, at the old pool in Moray Place. I didn't learn very well, I was... it was over my head at the shallow end.

Kay: Oh, goodness. But I imagine the pools had been closed during the polio epidemic.

Ross: I would expect they were, yeah. No, I only ever went there to actually have lessons early on. It was... I think that pool was... was used very much as a... a public bath-house. There were... a lot of people in North Dunedin didn't have baths or anything, and they'd go there for a... to have a bath, you know perhaps once a week or once a fortnight.

Kay: Yes, yeah. Thank goodness it was there, then! [ laughs]

Ross: Yeah. Well, they might have used the bath to keep the coal in, of course.

Kay: Yes, that's true. [laughs] Yeah, so what else do you remember about those times? 'Cause you've written this wonderful book.

22:07

Ross: Great, great freedom, umm, I felt as a kid. I mean, we... we conformed. You know, everyone conformed. Umm, and we probably took notice of what the Government said if they ever said anything. We had, umm... a local policeman, who lived opposite what is now the supermarket in Mornington, and he was a large man with a tall hat and heavy boots. And he would run after any naughty boys and give them the strap if they were... they were bad.

Kay: Goodness!

Ross: And so we were all frightened of the policeman, but he was quite a nice fellow. [laughter] We obeyed... I mean the teachers' word at school was law. And you didn't really see any... anyone really arguing. Umm, you got the strap... and by the time you got to secondary school, caning was still going. The girls, I think, got strapped on the hand occasionally, but weren't allowed to be strapped round the legs or backside, I don't think, whereas boys could be.

Kay: Oh!

Ross: I know there was one teacher that used to ah, whack us on the finger with a long ruler if our writing was bad.

Kay: Oh, dear. Did that improve your writing?

Ross: It didn't improve the writing one little bit, but... Yeah, no the discipline at school was... it was... it was very patriotic. We... ah had to line up each morning in front of a flagpole, and the flag was pulled up... this was during the War... and we saluted the flag, and we promised to obey God and the King, and the British Empire. And then we marched off to the sound of the Mornington School band to our classrooms. Well, the band, I think, was a kettle drum and two triangles. [laughter] But ah... there may have been something else, but but we took it all very seriously, and the British Empire was very important to us.

Kay: Ah. And useful for enforcing disclipline of course, 'cause you were regimented.

Ross: Ah, yeah. I mean you... discipline was highly... highly important. You know, you weren't even... on the premises you were allowed to go to the toilet except at intervals before, in lunchtimes and so on.

Kay: All scheduled, yeah.

Ross: I remember wetting the floor at least once. But... yeah, no it was... ah, no, we ah... I don't remember arguing much with people. [laughter]

Kay: No, I'm not surprised.

Ross: Ah, probably they were allowed to kill you, I think! [laughter] I'm just not sure!

Kay: Goodness me! But that was possibly why... they must have had a good rollout of the vaccine, because it was all... it was done through schools and you probably didn't...

25:06

Ross: Ah, I would expect everyone had to have it. They... I just don't... know. I mean, I was too young to... well, as I say I was sort of gone before it happened. I remember vaguely remember getting the diptheria one, and I don't know if it was... a multi... when it had scarlet fever or something with it as well, I can't remember. I remember having a reaction to one at some stage. It was probably that one.

Kay: Oh, right.

Ross: But we did. We got everything that was going. And, ah... so I mean, I think that... my generation and the one perhaps before it... probably had so many diseases that they were able to counter anything else that came in later years.

Kay: Yes! [laughs] It stood you in good stead.

Ross: Yes, and we had dirt and so forth. [laughs] Yes, and nobody ah... nobody stopped us. And, ah I s'pose we had a very limited diet during the War years. And the main thing we had too much of was sugar. Yeah, no the rationing of sugar, ah, was... you know everything that came from overseas, of course, was hard so tea was rationed, sugar was rationed. Ah, and of course, nylon and stuff. But sugar I looked up, and adults were allowed 12 ounces a week, and children 6 ounces. That's a huge amount of sugar.

Kay: That's a lot, yes.

Ross: And no wonder our teeth were absolute rubbish.

Kay: Well, thank goodness that there was rationing. How much would you have had otherwise?

Ross: Mmm, well I remember sugar was kept in a big bin in our house. And so was flour. So these bins... pulled out, they were the size of a cupboard. And so goodness know many kilograms of sugar. And 'cause my mother was keeping the tin filled up with sweet biscuits and cakes, and there were sweet puddings and so on, so ah... yeah, no we were over-sugared!

Kay: Definitely! [laughs] So probably your teeth were the next epidemic.

Ross: Oh, my teeth were awful! Yeah, no I lost ah... all my first ones rotted, and my second ones weren't much good either.

Kay: Ah, and that would be why.

Ross: You know, so by the time my kids arrived... while we were in Palmerston North fluoridation came in and, 'course they had brilliant teeth. And they didn't have a lot of sugar either.

Kay: No, so it shows how it works, yeah.

Ross: Yeah.

27:33

Kay: So, were you born in Dunedin?

Ross: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kay: So, you've lived here all your life, yeah.

Ross: Yes, I was born on the day that the Hindenberg exploded in New York, and ah... they shelled Madrid in the Spanish Civil War. It's a bit of an omen for the future, wasn't it? [laughter]

Kay: But at least you were good news.

Ross: Yes. Yeah, so. Yeah, it took me a long time to work out. I wasn't sure if I'd been born at home, or what had happened. And ah, I never got 'round to getting a birth certificate until I was about 30 getting a passport, and found I was born in a nursing home called Quendon in Market Street. Out near St Kilda, so... My mother must have gone there a few days before. Otherwise, you know, if she waited until she went into labour, she had a bus and a cable car and an electric tram. An hour's travel to get there! [laughter]

Kay: That would have been quite a journey!

Ross: Plus a walk.

Kay: So hopefully she had a period in there where she could relax, yeah.

Ross: They must have known... you know, roughly... you know I would calculate. Umm... and they often said that I was a pretty sickly kid. Had to be looked afer by Karitane nurses for the first few weeks. But I'm pretty sure that the midwife that, umm... well, had she had a full-season fishing licence, I'm sure she'd have consigned me back to the water. [laughter] You know, I was undersized, undernourished. But, you know, we survived.

Kay: Yes, to a very good... good long life, mmm.

Ross: I was pretty wee. I mean, when I went to Macandrew Intermediate, I would have been... 1947 I was 10, so ok, so... yeah, I'd have been 10 and a half when I started. And I walked from Mornington to Macandrew Intermediate every day and back.

Kay: That's a long way, yes. Yes.

Ross: Which is a long way out there... by Bathgate Park. And I was only... when I went to Otago Boys I was weighed for rugby, when I first... I was four stone, 12. So I was in the F-grade rugby team.

Kay: Goodness me!

Ross: And it took me a year to reach 10 stone. I grew very quickly in there. And, ah... so there were a lot of kids my size.

Kay: Do you think that was because of the War?

Ross: Well... I don't know... maybe. I mean, both my parents were... not particularly large.

Kay: Mmm, might be hereditary, yeah.

Ross: And it's possibly that. I don't remember being underfed.

Kay: Well, you certainly had plenty of sugar!

Ross: I mean, and my mother made huge numbers of stews and soups and things, which you could use the lesser qualities of meat and get more on the coupons and so on. And we grew vegetables. I don't ever remember being hungry at all. I probably wasn't. But Dad just worked in a... ah, a warehouse... He used to walk to work quite a lot too, which was quite a fair way from Mornington. Ah, but he'd get the cable car home.

Kay: Well, you certainly kept fit, walking to school and back, I would think.

Ross: Well, yeah, I'm sure that's why I'm so short. I wore my legs out. [laughter] It was all downhill on the way there, but the way home was pretty steep. yeah.

Kay: Yeah. [laughter] Well, you've written this wonderful, umm...

Ross: Sort of memoir, I think.

Kay: Memoir, yes.

Ross: Yeah.

31:01

Kay: And there is a chapter in here... Ah, the memoir... I'll just say for the recording, the memoir is called "A Memoir - Memories and Events in and Around Dunedin, and the Rest of the World 1937 to 1957 by Ross Grimmett" and there is a chapter all on "polio and other pestilences in childhood".

Ross: Yeah, which I hadn't remembered writing.

Kay: So, and you very kindly have agreed to allow us to quote from this.

Ross: Yeah, sure, you're very welcome.

Kay: So that's very kind.

Ross: No, I can't read it any longer to see what I wrote.

Kay: Ah. I could read it to you, but probably not now.

Ross: Yeah, no, no, don't bother. And luckily my mother had kept a lot of, umm, drawings I'd done. I was keen on art. And also records and so forth... ah, which I still had. And there were family photos. Umm, which I managed to weave into that. And then I spent... when I was writing it, I spent weeks at Hocken reading the newspapers of the time.

Kay: That's a wonderful resource, isn't it? Yeah.

Ross: And I particularly picked on every fifth birthday, and read that particular year, ah in more detail than the others.

Kay: Ah, that's a good idea, yes. So you could you could place where you were at a particular time, that's great.

Ross: Place where I was, yeah.

Kay: And there's a good picture on the front of Dunedin. So that's a lovely... memorial.

Ross: Yeah. Yeah, no, I'm giving a... giving a talk, umm... ah, the Blind Institute. I gave it at Mosgiel on living in Dunedin during the War years. And, ah, I remember all of the... you know, the air raid shelter along the road, and the ack-ack gun in the Octagon, ah, on Friday night shopping, just to show how well-protected we were.

Ross: Would you like to...

Kay: Oh, I think that's your phone.

Ross: Well, I'll leave that. I'll let you look at it shortly.

Kay: Right. Well, I think I've covered all my questions, so it's just if there's anything else you'd like to talk about around that time.

Ross: I don't think there's anything else. I tried to wrack my brains. But I don't remember really bad... adversely affected by... the lockdown. And I... I was quite good at lessons. So I probably found the lessons pretty straightforward, and I'd just do them and go out and play.

Kay: Yes. So, it wasn't too much of a hardship for you, yeah.

Ross: No, and... and obviously I didn't miss my friends. Ah... I'm sure...

Kay: 'Cause it definitely would have stayed in your mind.

Ross: I'm sure I would have missed my friends, had it been four months I was isolated.

Kay: Yes, that's right. And I suppose it being over the summer holidays it just felt like an extended summer holiday, yeah.

Ross: That's right.

Kay: Oh, well, thank you very, very much.

Ross: Good, it's been a pleasure to wrack my brains again and think of the past.

Kay: Thank you! It's lovely to talk about it, isn't it, sometimes? Yeah.

Ross: Yes.

Kay: And I really am looking forward to reading your memoir.

Ross: Yeah, well I'm pretty sure it's there [in the library]. If you can't find it, I've got... I can loan you a copy.

Kay: Ah, that would be very kind, thank you.

Ross: I think I've got... I might have another copy. I've given a lot away.

Kay: Yes. Well, I'll check. And if we haven't...

Ross: If you could check, and if you can't find it, you're welcome to borrow it. Yeah.

Kay: I will get in touch and... yeah. So, I think we will turn off the recorder, if that's alright, if you've got nothing else to say. So we're switching off now.

[Recording ends]