Transcript of interview with John Gourlay

A transcript of an interview, recorded as part of the Dunedin Public Libraries' oral history project on the effects on the Dunedin community of poliomyelitis outbreaks in the 1940s and 1950s. Interviewee is Mr John Gourlay, who was at school in the early 1950s. Mr Gourlay did not contract the disease but has recollections of life during the epidemic, including queuing for his polio vaccination at school.

RECORDING IDENTIFICATION
This is an interview with Mr John Gourlay on Thursday 9th June 2022. The interview is for the Dunedin Public Libraries He Purapura Marama Scattered Seeds Digital Archive Polio oral history Project. The interviewer is Kay Mercer. The interview is being recorded at Dunedin City Library, Moray Place, Dunedin. It is recorded on a Zoom H5 digital recorder using Countryman Isomax clip-on microphones. The interview commenced at 9.30am.

ABSTRACT

00:00     Recording identification

01:57     John Gourlay, born in Dunedin, first 10 years of life in North                  East Valley; thereafter has lived in Abbotsford

03:57     Receiving the polio vaccine at school

06:17     Sharpening the hypodermic needle

07:47     Compulsory vaccinations

09:37     Age at vaccination, type of vaccination, boosters

10:57     Salk vaccine

11:37     Callipers

13:07     Chain-driven tricycles

13:47     Iron lung

16:37     Hygiene precautions

18:07     Longer school holidays

19:27     Traveling into town on the trolley bus

21:37     Comparison between polio response and COVID-19              

23:07     Misinformation

27:07     Sense of relief when Salk vaccine rolled out

27:47     No opting out of vaccine for schoolchildren

31:17     Children being children - unaffected by polio messaging

Interview transcription

00:00:00

Recording identification: This is an interview with Mr John Gourlay, on 9th June 2022, and the interview started at 10am. The interview is for the Dunedin Public Libraries He Purapura Marara Scattered Seeds Digital Archive Polio Oral History Project. The interviewer is Kay Mercer. The interview is being held at Dunedin City Library on Moray Place, Dunedin. It is recorded on a Zoom H5 Digital Recorder, using Countryman Isomax clip-on microphones.

Kay: So, thank you so much for coming in, John, it's really nice to see you today, and thank you very much for taking part in this project. It will be interesting to hear what you have to say.Before we go on, though, I want to confirm that you understand that this material is being recorded for archival purposes primarily, for the Dunedin Public Libraries He Purapura Marara Scattered Seeds Digital Archive Polio Project. The recording will be held in the He Purapura Marara Scattered Seeds Digital Archive, the address for which is www.dunedin.recollect.co.nz. And I'm going to call that 'the Archive' 'cause that's really long. A copy of the recording may be held on repository in digital form by Dunedin Public Libraries - which means it's an MP3 file held on... in a file. Material held in the Archive - which is the bit that goes online - is freely accessible by the general public, as specified in the recording agreement which we've provided for you to sign, and which you've just signed for me. Are you happy with that, and are you willing to continue with the recording?

John: Yes, I am.

Kay: Thank you very much, John. So, can you tell me a little bit about yourself? Did you grow up in Dunedin?

John: Yes, umm, I was born in Dunedin in late August of 1950, and I lived my first 10 years in North East Valley. And then I grew up, the rest of the time in Abbotsford.

Kay: Ah, a real local.

John: Yes, yes, yes. Always... I've always lived in Dunedin.

Kay: So, part of this project is to try and gauge what the impact of the polio epidemic was on Dunedin... Dunedin's community, and you were born slap-bang in the middle of a major epidemic. So... what was your first recollection of polio? When did you first become aware of it as a child?

John: I'm not... I don't really have any recollections of... of the polio, like umm, there may have been things happen at school that I didn't really... you know, didn't really memorise or store and I also... I don't remember, umm... even my parents umm, the likes of them getting the vaccine. They must have got it... they must have gone and got the vaccine when it was available, but I don't remember, umm, anything specific about them getting that. Umm, the only... my only real memory of getting the vaccine was actually at school. Umm, that it was... the whole school... North East Valley School was walked class by class to the school hall, and in there was nurses and doctors giving injections. In other words it was, you know, roll up your right sleeve. The nurse swabbed it. The doctor gave you a

shot of... vaccine, and you sort of walked off to the other end of the hall, probably sat down because the other end of the hall had the, umm, gym mats laid out on the floor for those who had had a bad reaction, or passed out, or fainted, or whatever you like to call it, who were put on a gym mat until they recovered. But there was quite a few nurses and doctors, and it was like... umm you know, nurses were, umm, putting the syringes into the... into the containers of the vaccine and filling the syringe, and putting them on the table... behind the doctors, umm, who then, you know as the next pupil stepped up, picked up a full syringe and then gave you the injection, and then put the syringe back down on the table, umm, behind the full ones. And they were obviously picked up by... a nurse. And there must have been a sterilisation... umm... the... unit there to... to sterilise the, umm, syringes.

Kay: So they were re-used?

John: Yes, they would be... they weren't the modern plastic disposable ones. I think they were the old metal ones. And umm, they were... yeah, 'cause I remember one nurse had like a... umm, and oil stone, sharpening the needles.

Kay: [gasps]

[laughter]

Kay: Good heavens!

John: Obviously after so many injections, they...

Kay: Yes. They get blunt.

John: Get blunt, and so they obviously sharpened them up and put them through the steriliser thing.

Kay: Good heavens.

John: It was... yeah, and as I say it was like an assembly line. The class was lined up, and everybody took... one pace forward, more or less together, until you came out the other end. Umm, there was... and the teacher...  was standing to the side with the class roll, and was putting a cross beside each pupil's name as they got the injection. So that was obviously a record of, umm, who had had the, umm vaccine. And I don't know what happened if there was anybody not at school that day. How... there must have been a follow-up system.

Kay: So, was it compulsory to have the vaccine?

John: Yes, my recollection is that it was compulsory, and I don't even remember, umm, having to take home a form for my parents to sign, and to return to the school. It was... my recollection is that, umm, you got it whether ... whether your parents objected or not, you... everybody got it, 'cause I don't even remember anybody being sort of stood aside. It was boom, everybody got it.

Kay: Yeah, universal. Do you remember if the needle was big... was it painful?

John: [sighs] Probably... well, to... to a child it probably would feel painful. It probably depended how many others it had been used on.

Kay: How blunt it was, mmm.

John: If you were lucky and you got one that had just been sharpened it probably wasn't too bad, whereas... if you got one that had done a dozen or more people, it was probably a bit...

Kay: Yeah. I suppose they knew if the child hurt that it was time to sharpen it.

John: Yes, yeah, yeah.

Kay: Goodness me! And do you remember there being lots of people that needed to lie down, or was it...?

John: No, I don't think there was very many in the class that... sort of had to lie down. It was just probably... it probably varied from class to class. Because, as I say, each class was sort of called up, and you... you joined the end of the queue, and it... it was just like... [chuckles]

Kay: Yeah, do you remember how you felt? How old were you? Were you old enough to remember?

John: Well, I must have been about 8 or so.

Kay: Yeah.

John: And I think that there were two, umm... rounds of the... of injections. And then there was another one where... it was actually the old one, which was the liquid in a little, wee disposable paper cup, which was much quicker and simpler, because they just had the cups lined up, and you took one and... swallowed it. Umm, that was yeah, it was quite, umm...

Kay: It was sort of a booster, was it?

John: Yeah. They must have... I think that there must have been at least three or more... umm, rounds of it, because when we shifted to Abbotsford I remember at Abbotsford School having the old one as well. So there must have been a good three or four rounds of it.

Kay: It kept going, yeah.

John: Just to keep it boosting up.

Kay: And was that the Salk vaccine, or...?

John: Yes, I'm pretty sure it was the Salk vaccine that they were using.

Kay: Do you remember what it tasted like? Was it really bitter, or...?

John: No.

Kay: You don't remember?

John: No. I think it probably had a, umm a flavouring in it anyway. If it had a bitter taste or whatever, there was probably a flavouring in it so that the kids didn't spit it out. [laughs]

Kay: Yeah. So, were you aware... apart from the vaccine, were you aware of polio in any other ways? Did you see any children who had caught the disease?

John: There... I... have a vague recollection of umm, some... some kids with callipers on their legs, but they were very very few. Umm, there was... yeah, I don't recall anybody saying that anyone in the class, or any of the classes that I was in, had died or had even caught it. There was no-one in any of my classes that actually... even had callipers, so... it was pretty much a hit and miss affair as to who actually developed polio. But I do remember after you know, in the later '50s that you used to see adults with, umm, callipers on their legs and wore with... umm, some callipers and also sticks, who'd obviously caught... had polio and it had affected them quiet badly. There was even... used to be some, I think, around who I assume that they had had polio, and it hadn't been too bad, and that they used to... they were adults, and they used to ride, umm, tricycles... chain-driven tricycles along the footpath. So I assumed they were adults, as I said, who had had, umm... polio, but not to the extent that their muscles has wasted away too much, and they still had leg movement or it had only affected one leg and they were able to... to pedal. I do remember going with my paternal grandmother to visit a friend of hers who had had polio. And she was what was called an iron lung.

Kay: Ah, goodness, right.

John: And we were in the... we went to her house, and we were in her bedroom, and she was lying in the bed. The head of the bed was elevated. I remember that. And there was a big, umm, bedspread across the bed, and there was this whirring, wheezing, clomping sound coming from under the bed. And... the, umm, bedspread would rise up, and it would come back down again. And that was obviously... her only means of, umm, breathing was... the iron lung was doing compressing her chest so that she could... so that she could breathe, umm... It was quite a... yeah, it was a funny sound.

Kay: Yeah. Was it frightening for you as a boy?

John: No.

Kay: No? Just curious?

John: Yeah, curious. Why is her bed... you know, I was sort of thinking why is her bed making all these... funny noises?

Kay: Mmm. Did your grandmother explain to you what it was?

John: I think she did explain that we were going to visit her friend who had polio, and that she was in an iron... what was called an iron lung. And yeah... you actually couldn't see the iron lung, 'cause the bedspread was right over and came down to the floor... so that there was... she was just like lying in a bed.

Kay: Mmm. So was the lady able to speak?

John: I can't remember... I think she must have been able to speak, because otherwise my grandmother probably wouldn't have gone... because it would have been awkward. But, yeah... I think she did speak, but she was just umm, doing the things of... yeah, she was just lying... just lying there and I think she could move her head, but that was about... all.

Kay: Yeah.

John: I... we only went the once, so I don't know whether my parents put their foot down and said, "Don't take him again" or what, I don't know.

Kay: Ah, right. Mmm. So, did they ever talk to you about polio? Did they, sort of, do you remember taking precautions, like washing your hands or anything like that?

John: Ah yes, there was always... it was always hammered home to wash your hands after you'd been to the toilet. Umm, yeah, and... it was... it was talked about in sort of general terms that... yes, there was polio there and it can cause you... umm, a serious illness. But... yeah, it was just... it was just that. That... just you take the precautions. So there was no... it was just... probably just more... umm... how can I put it? It was just more to make sure that you kept up your personal hygiene, rather than anything special. It was just...

Kay: Yeah. Just do that generally, whether there was... yeah, whether polio was there or not.

John: Yes, yeah.

Kay: Do you remember any other precautions, like were you ever kept away from school, or prevented from going swimming, or...?

John: [sighs] There was no, nothing that I remember. There may have been extra holidays, but being so young, you wouldn't really realise that... you know, the time off school wasn't the school holidays. It was just...

Kay: Mmm. No, it was just a long holiday, yeah.

John: Yeah, it's just the school holiday and... and... swimming was, umm... the only swimming in Dunedin was at the umm, swimming baths in Moray Place, which we didn't... as a family, we didn't frequent.

Kay: Right.

John: And, umm, so there was... yeah, it was just that.

Kay: So you wouldn't have noticed, yeah.

John: So there was nothing out of the ordinary.

Kay: No. Did you ever have school lessons at home, or anything like that?

John: Not that I remember. I don't think, ah, if the schools were closed there was no... don't remember doing lessons at home.

Kay: It was just a long holiday.

John: It was just a long holiday, yeah.

Kay: Yeah. And what about public information - do you remember hearing anything in the cinemas, or on the radio, or... posters, or...?

John: I probably... I probably... we didn't go to the cinema all that much, because it was a... you know, it was a long trip from North East Valley to come into town. And... that involved a change of, umm... it involved a change from the trolley bus ... to a tram at the Gardens, because the Normanby trolley bus went down Cassell Street in those days, because the trams were still running... and so to get into the centre of town, you had to get the trolley bus from Normanby to the Gardens and change into the tram to get into the centre of town, and then the same going back, because... umm it wasn't 'til later that it was... you got on the trolley bus... and the trolley bus was going through the centre of town. ... Yeah, so it was... to go to the... to go to the cinema was quite an involved... umm, trip.

Kay: So you didn't do it too often, no.

John: It wasn't done too often. It was... it was, umm, mainly for shopping and things.

Kay: So do you remember anything on the radio, any announcements made? Or do you remember seeing any posters up, or...?

John: Not really, no, I don't really...umm maybe I didn't... in those days I probably didn't listen to the radio.

Kay: No, that's right.

John: And... yeah.

Kay: And is there anything... you perhaps were too young... but I just wondered, 'cause part of this is looking at a comparison between how we've responded to the COVID outbreak, compared to how... you know, the effect on the community of the polio epidemic, and I just wondered if you think there's anything about the polio epidemic that might have prepared us for COVID?

John: I... I think that, umm the polio one... people were much more... were probably much more... umm, accepting of the Government's rules... and there probably was, and I don't don't remember my parents talking about protesters, or anything like that. Umm, yeah, there didn't seem to be the amount of protest and people who were anti... anything that... It was, umm... yeah, it was... that... people, you know, the Government said you are to have this vaccine, queue here, and everybody queued here and got their shots. Whereas... yeah it... it was much more, umm... it... people, I think, were much more accepting, and unquestioning of it, or...

Kay: So they were more trusting?

John: Trusting, yeah. They weren't... they didn't question it because there wasn't any misinformation around then, that what was put out was actually quite, umm ... it was...

Kay: They were getting consistent messaging, 'cause it was only one message.

John: Yes, yeah. It... there was no... yeah. There was nobody saying that this is... that it's dangerous or poisonous or whatever. It... because anybody with that sort of message would have probably had very limited... would have had very limited means of promulgating their message, because the, umm, radio and newspapers wouldn't... wouldn't have...

Kay: Wouldn't have run them, no.

John: They wouldn't have, umm, published those... those things.

Kay: Mmm. It was sort of united effort.

John: Yes. Yes, it was... yeah.

Kay: Mmm, no it's interesting, isn't it?

John: Yes, it's much more different, whereas now it's... with the internet...

Kay: It's a bit of a free-for-all, isn't it?

John: It's a free-for-all, and... yeah. And it's very hard for people... well, for some people to... work out what's right and what's wrong.

Kay: Mmm. Do you think that maybe because you lived through that, and you did trust the Government and the messaging, and you did have your vaccine, do you feel that that prepared you to follow instructions for the COVID outbreak?

John: It probably did in a way. It probably did. It probably meant that you were, umm... you were able to... to work out yourself, for yourself, what was right and what was wrong, rather than rather than, as I say, some people today read something and take it that that is correct, when it's actually wrong.

Kay: Yes.

John: And, yeah, it was quite... yeah, it was a totally different, umm, messaging... system back then.

Kay: Mmm. Because we keep hearing this word 'unprecedented', and it's not unprecedented, this outbreak. It's happened at least twice in New Zealand's history, yeah, with the polio and the 'flu.

John: Yeah, yeah. And there's... and... there's probably... umm, there's always been, umm... pandemics of different diseases and... umm, there's probably only been in the... you know, in the 20th Century, that they have been able to, umm, control them, whereas before they just ran rampant until they...

Kay: That's right.

John: died out themselves.

Kay: Mmm. Yeah. I was quite interested in knowing what the mood was like, because obviously we were quite relieved when through the COVID pandemic, to find that there was a vaccination, or at least most of us were. It came as something of a relief. Do you recall anything about how it felt when the Salk vaccine was discovered to be effective? I suppose you were still quite young, but...

John: There was probably a sense of, umm, relief... that here was something that could control it. 'Cause, umm, yeah... that, up until then, they didn't have anything which could control it.

Kay: Mmm, a sense of helplessness, I suppose, before that, yeah.

John: Yes, yeah, it was... it...  Yeah, I think that there was a general mood of... this will... this is good for us... yeah.

Kay: Yeah. And I suppose that's part of... how you were able to accept. You know, there was unanimous "let's all have this vaccine" because it was just a relief after decades of... of the fear of having the virus around, yeah.

John: Yeah. Yes, yeah, it's... yeah, it is... And one thing that I... am pretty sure, is that, umm... there was no, umm... that I didn't take a form home for my parents to sign and bring back to say that I could have the vaccine. In other words, it's possible that the Government said it... you know, all schoolchildren are to be vaccinated, and that was that.

Kay: Yeah, fully mandated.

John: Yeah, it was... whereas now, it's... you know, it's sort of well, you should get them, you should get them vaccinated, but you don't have to. Whereas, yeah. Whereas, yeah... it's just the, umm... it's, yeah, it's a different era now. Whereas back... back then, people were far less questioning of... of what the Government said that you should do. And if the Government said you should do it, they would do it. Especially, umm, public health-wise. Maybe other things there might have been a push-back, or people not really doing it if it had been something different. But yeah, people back then did... did do... umm follow the instructions. If you follow what I mean?

Kay: Mmm, yeah. Yes, I do. They did as they were told, because they believed it was the right thing to do, perhaps?

John: Yes, yeah.

Kay: Do you think there's some lessons there for us now, or do you think it's all fine?

John: Well, I don't know. It... it's... it probably means that, umm... you know, that the public health officials have probably got the best handle on what should be done, and what is needed to be done, and... you know... the general public don't really have all the scientific knowledge and papers and stuff that the Government... that the Health Department gets, and so... yeah. I think that it's a better... it was better then that people just did... what they were told. [laughs]

Kay: Mmm, yeah. Well, I've come to the end of my questions. Is there anything else that you wanted to add around that, any other recollections or thoughts?

John: No. No, I don't. As I say it was mainly... it's mainly... I just remember the... the injection, the Salk, umm vaccine being administered. I don't... as I say, I don't remember anything about the pandemic or anything like that... possibly because... I was probably a bit young, and also... you... you were probably more interested in... in playing in the playground, and...

Kay: You were a little boy. You were just being a little boy, yeah.

John: Yes, yeah. Yeah, just being children and things. Yeah, as I say, I don't think... yeah, there was nothing sort of you know, don't go to the playground... don't go into the playground, or don't go here, or anything like that. I don't remember anything like that.

Kay: Mmm. 'Cause that's an interesting comparison with COVID, isn't it? I've found that a lot with people I've interviewed. The children were allowed to be children - they carried on with their lives and mostly blissfully unaware of this, apart from having the vaccine. Whereas now the messaging is quite strong for children, isn't it? Quite different.

John: Yes, yeah, i'ts quite yeah, it... we... yeah, we were just left to carry on. There probably were rules, but they weren't strict... they were probably parental rules, rather than Government... well, they were Government rules, and your parents...

Kay: Yes, through the filter of your parents, yeah.

John: Yes, yeah.

Kay: But you didn't feel the fear that, you know, there's this terrible thing happening, which perhaps is different to now, with the children having it everywhere they go. There are, you know, warning signs and... it's quite different for them. Yeah.

John: Yeah, I don't even... There probably were warning signs, but I just don't... When you're young, you probably... you probably read the signs but it's never lodged in your memory.

Kay: No, that's right. It wasn't enough that it's... it wasn't a significant enough event that it remained with you as a child.

John: Yeah.

Kay: Yes. Yeah, interesting. Well, thank you so much, John. It was really wonderful of you to contribute to this project, and I really appreciate that, thank you.

John: No, that's alright. Yeah, that's... yeah. Ok, that's alright. I'm very glad to do that.

Kay: Thank you. Alright, I'm gonna press the button, stop the recording.