Transcript of interview with John Farry for the Dunedin Dance Halls project

John Farry recalls Dunedin Dance Halls, the Joe Brown Dances, and his own venture the Manhattan Lounge.

Abstract

00:00    Recording identification and introduction

02:20    John introduces himself and recalls his earliest memories of the Joe Brown dances, listening               to the broadcasts of the dances on the radio with his cousins at age 12 or 13

04:20    John recalls the university dances, once he started studying at the University of Otago

05:00    John remembers attending the Joe Brown dances at the Town Hall as a university student -               uncomfortable with this method of meeting people, but recognising it was an important       place for people to meet potential partners; strict no alcohol policy; discovering Elvis Presley               and rock and roll at the simultaneous rock and roll dance in the Concert Hall

08:40    Remembering the St Kilda dances

09:38    John relates how he started the Manhatten Lounge in Moray Place as a young man with      cousins and friends - aimed at couples, for whom the Town Hall dances weren't really        appropriate - Howard Morrison Quartet, and Martin Winiata, Calder Prescott on piano

16:45    John recalls how his cousin met his wife at the Town Hall dance and have been married for   52 years

18:45    Remembering musicians who played at the Town Hall and St Kilda - Harry Strang, Calder       Prescott, good American-style dance music; broadcasts on the radio

20:25    The dress code

21:25    Learning to dance at St Kevin's all-boys boarding school

23:17    Encouraging a relationship by offering to take a girl home from the dance

23:57    The uncomfortable experience of asking girls to dance

26:09    John's preference for the Woolshed hops - the University being an easier way to interact    with people

29:08    John's appreciation for the dances as the only way working men and women might be able           to interact

30:08    Joe Brown, the entrepreneur; the Miss New Zealand Competition

33:48    John considers the Joe Brown dances as an important part of the Dunedin social scene, and           possibly unique to New Zealand in size and regularity; well run - Joe a family man with          principles

35:28    John explains how the Manhattan Lounge performed a similar function for older couples -         because otherwise there was nowhere for couples to go to enjoy music and a light meal;     nowhere like that today

37:48    John clarifies the location of the entrance to the Town Hall dances, and how to get to the    rock and roll dance

38:27    The informality of rock and roll dancing

39:45    Different attitude towards women in the Joe Brown era - the changes that coincided with       the introduction of rock and roll

44:05    John recalls six o'clock closing and the impact on dances - men drinking outside from the            back of the car at country dances, or pre-drinking at the pub before the Joe Brown dances -           zero tolerance for alcohol at the dances; the demise of the dances

46:05    John considers the gap in the social scene when there were no more regular dances

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00:00

Recording identification. This is an interview with John Farry, on Tuesday 30th August at 12pm. The interview is for the Dunedin Public Libraries' He Purapura Marara Scattered Seeds digital archive dance halls oral history project. The interviewers are Kay Mercer and Jill Bowie. The interview is being held at Dunedin City Library. It is recorded on a Zoom H5 Digital Recorder, using Countryman Isomax clip-on microphones.

Kay: Recording now, if that's alright with you.

John: Ok.

Kay: And I'm just going to start with this verbal agreement. So before we go any further, John, I want to confirm that you understand that this material is being recorded for archival purposes primarily for the Dunedin Public Libraries' He Purapura Marara Scattered Seeds digital archive. The recording will be held in the He Purapura Marara Scattered Seeds digital archive www.dunedin.recollect.co.nz (the Archive). A copy of the recording may be held on repository in digital form by Dunedin Public Libraries. Material held in the Archive is freely accessible by the general public, as specified in the written recording agreement we have provided for you to sign. Are you happy with that, and are you willing to continue with the recording?

John: I am very happy with that, thank you.

Kay: Great. Thank you very much, John.

John: And I'll just say that I have done two oral histories. The second one I can't remember, but I did the... I was one of the participants in the Otago District Law Society oral history.

Kay: Right, that would be interesting.

John: That's at Toitū.

Kay: Right, yes. We'll have to have a listen.

John: And I can't remember what the other one was... with Helen Frizzell. I can't remember. Anyway, so I'm familiar with the idea now. I'll just speak and you can edit or...

Kay: That would be wonderful, yes please.

02:20

John: I'm John Edward Farry, and I was born in Dunedin... before you guys were born probably, in 1938. My childhood was in Gore when my parents were in business. And probably my first recollection of Joe Brown's Town Hall dance was in my childhood, when I would come to Dunedin for holidays. And I had cousins here and we'd all be up on Saturday night, and we did tune into Town Hall dances, because there was no such thing as live music on the radio in those days. I mean they didn't... well, not that I recall anyway. So it was quite lively.

Kay: Ah, wasn't there? Ok. So that was a broadcast of the music that was playing at the dances?

John: A broadcast of the music. And I think it was after... it was probably after 10.30 or something like that.

Kay: So how old would you have been then?

John: Ah, like 12, 13. And when I came up to Dunedin, I'd listen with my cousins. It was because of the novelty value of it more than anything, not that we were interested at all in the dance hall aspect. And we used to love listening to Joe Brown saying, "The next dance is a..." whatever those old sort of ballroom dances... "Gentleman, take your partners and dance!" So, I went to Oamaru to St Kevin's College for my secondary education, and came to Dunedin to attend university.

04:20

And in those days the University had a lot of dances, especially for freshers. Now somehow that atmosphere was different, because it sort of felt like an in-house situation, but still the same principle of the women sitting down one end, and the men having to ask, "May I have the pleasure of this dance?" It sounds very Victorian, doesn't it?

05:00

Anyway, there were occasions when I did go to the Town Hall dance and stood down at the back of the hall. It needs to be understood that it was an offence to have alcohol in any area adjacent to... not in the hall, obviously not in the hall, but anywhere near the hall, so... and people were charged with those offences, you know, if you had... it was close to the entry and you were swigging bottles of beer, you'd be likely charged. So... maybe people did some drinking before attending, to boost the confidence, but there was no alcohol available. So it was all very staid. But I did go to the Town Hall probably on two or three occasions. And I saw Joe Brown in the flesh, and... see it was a big band. It would have been... well, I don't really know, but it was a big band. It takes a big band to fill the Town Hall. And the dances were, you know were the quick-step and the foxtrot, and such dances, just sort of... I don't think they had those ones that we learned at school, the Gypsy Tap and the Gay Gordons, and so on. They give me the willies just to talk about them!

[laughter]

But the point about it all is that it was a meeting place, and there'd be many, many Dunedin people of my age and younger, who would say they met their future wife at the Dunedin Town Hall dance. So, it was a social event, which was important. And it was every week, and it was a meeting place. My recollection of is pre-rock and roll, but always meeting the public requirements, the Town Hall dance extended into the Concert Chamber in later years, where it was rock and roll. And I did go there, because I did enjoy rock and roll. So, my recollection as a student is that I first became aware of Elvis Presley's first record, which was Heartbreak Hotel, and you know it was like a sound that we'd never heard. And played it over and over and over. And that was sort of... potentially the sort of downsizing of the Dunedin Town Hall dance. But you could go to the one that was in the Concert Chamber. So they ran simultaneously and you could walk through to the Concert Chamber if you wanted to hear rock and roll music. But it was probably... it was the beginning of the social change which would mean that the idea of... the old concept of dance hall sort of started to wane from that point on, because sort of... everything was more casual, and the girls... you know the girls came to any dance.

08:40

There was also one in St Kilda.

Kay: At the Town Hall?

John: At the Town Hall in St Kilda, yeah. That was mid-week. And... ah, I suppose I should explain to you, 'cause I've never really explained this... as we got a bit older... with my cousins, two cousins and one close friend, we were talking about the fact that there was nowhere like what we'd see in the movies, where people could go to a venue and sit at a table, and listen to the music, and... sort of cabaret-type situation.

09:38

So they all were enthusiastic about that, and... being Mr Action, I got busy the very next week and located a venue, which is on the other side of Moray Place, which is next to... virtually next to the theatre... which had been a factory. And we... we took a lease... ah, we had some financial assistance from the three fathers involved, or a guarantee in those days. And one of our number was a qualified builder. And we... he converted the premises, and we called it Manhattan.

Kay: Fantastic! I've never heard of this.

John: And... well, the mural on the wall was done by a friend of mine at that time, Shona McFarlane, who was a well-known artist. She did a Manhattan mural. And it had a mezzanine floor. And we opened with a great flourish. So, you know, it's part of a whole picture, I suppose that we... we finally... we had a band, which was top Dunedin musicians. Calder Prescott was on piano. And three others. And... it was seven and six, which is 75 cents, entry, and we had a... we bought in refreshments... sort of simple refreshments and ice cream parfaits and such like, which we made up. And that was up on the mezzanine floor, which looked down. It was a big space. It's now a rock-climbing facility. Just a few months ago, I think it started, this idea of wall climbing. It had sat there for a long time vacant. But it was a sign of the times that we felt that there was no... really... I was the ripe age of 21, and I was the MC, and I introduced the band each night. And we did anniversaries wedding anniversaries and engagements, and birthdays. And... you know, it was a lovely atmosphere. And the band just played. There was no one urging you to get up and... You came with a partner. You came with a partner, which you know...

Kay: So you didn't have to feel that you'd gotta pick somebody up to...

John: No. You know... a good dress code. I mean, we never had to... well, a couple of times people came inebriated, and they weren't permitted entry. So it was a good... And we got various guest artists. A Dunedin guy who had done well with an associate in Sydney, called Graham Kerr... Ian Kerr... I can't remember exactly, but when we had them, we charged an extra cover charge. We brought Howard Morrison Quartet down for a weekend, when they were really at their peak. And also we got... one of the other ones we got was a guy called Martin Winiata. Martin Winiata used to play two saxophones simultaneously... in his mouth at the same time. That was this thing, but he was also a very good musician. Lovely roly, poly Māori guy. And we thought, well... well, I suggested, let's ask him if he'd like to stay. And he did, and he stayed on. And we worked every Saturday night. We tried Wednesday, but it didn't ever work. Even offered free entry on Wednesday, but didn't work. But we always got a full house on Saturday. And we'd do reservations, set the tables, put the name on the table. We sometimes had to... people did smuggle alcohol in... but not to the extent that it would be unsatisfactory. And we watched them dance away. The other parties were a bit older than me. But you watched them dancing cheek-to-cheek as the night went on, and thinking, what the hell, why aren't I out there? And we wore dress suits for the door. And we had a cloakroom at the top of the stairs - you'd check in your stuff. And that was a sort of a by-product of the Town Hall dance.

Kay: So when did you start that? What year?

John: [quietly adding up] 21 and 38 is how much...

Jill: '59

John: '59?

Kay: Right, 1959.

John: 1959.

Kay: And how many people could you fit in there? Was it a big place?

John: About 200.

Kay: Ah, quite sizeable, then.

Jill: And was there a dance floor with tables around?

John: Yeah, yeah, and a mezzanine upstairs. It was all... we redecorated it all and, you know, bought the chairs, and... I mean, you could do things then... it was... the prices were sort of manageable, you know? So it was a classy little outfit, but about 12 months of my life was about enough. [laughs]

Kay: Exhausting, I imagine.

John: And the people who did the catering were very interested in it, continuing to do what we were doing, and then have a venue. And so we sold it. And we used to... when we finished up, we... each Saturday night we'd close at 12, and we used to go up to the Istanbul, which was one of the few sort of restaurants that produced... in those days there wasn't much to choose from. But a Turkish guy ran there ran it, and we used to there and have a meal together and then go home, and have Sunday all to ourselves. So that's a digression, isn't it, but anyway...

16:45

Going back to the Town Hall dance, I don't know, I can't vouch for its truth, but one story is told of someone of my vintage, who went across and asked her for a dance and was refused. And he reputedly said, "What do you expect for two bob, Clark Gable?"

[laughter]

So... it was an institution. And the other incident that I recall is that, with a close cousin I was studying for finals and... you know, its sort of all-pervading when you're a student, but we had to go to a christening of the first grandchild of my parents. And we studied, and he said to me when we left, "Look, would you mind if we just call at the Town Hall dance, because...?" I said, "What for?" He said, "Ah, I just... there's a girl I'd like to make contact with." So, you know, I was a bit anxious to get to the...obligatory to get to the christening or the christening party. So he... we paid and went in and... and I just sort of stood back, just waiting for him. So he, you know, was in search of this person who he'd met before, but didn't have a contact. So after about 10 minutes he'd found her and came back and said, "Yep, we can go now." So... he's now been married to that person for 52 years. So you see, as a place of contact, it was important.

18:45

But the concept seems... archaic now. But the Town Hall dance was well-conducted. The musicians were of high quality.

Kay: Do you remember any of the band names?

John: The band names? No, they were just the band at the Town Hall.

Kay: Like a house band.

John: There was a lot of well-known musician names of the day. I remember Harry Strang. He was one of the bands at South Dunedin. And I think he played in there on the Saturday. I can't... you know probably Calder Prescott would have been there. And it was kind of... the music which was the order of the day at that stage was... you know, it was before... you could only say it was before rock and roll. So it was a good American style dance music. The Town Hall was always well-conducted, and I never ever saw or read about a fight, or a disturbance at the Dunedin Town Hall dance. And it continued to be broadcast on 4ZB for years after I sort of lost interest. The girls used to dress up for the occasion in the fashions of the time. And there was a dress code. You couldn't go there looking like you'd just come off the farm.

20:25

Kay: What would the men have worn?

John: You know, a sports jacket and trousers. Jeans were probably not permitted. So just casual.

Kay: A tie?

John: No tie, no tie, no. Well, some would have worn a tie, I guess, but it wasn't the fashion at that time. But not... no, I shouldn't say that, I'm not sure about that. But what would you say? Smart casual. If you looked tidy and you'd dressed yourself, rather than covered yourself, then you'd be welcome. [laughter] No particular dress code.

21:25

Kay: So would the men have taken dance lessons to go to these things?

John: Well, I don't know. I had dance lessons at St Kevins, because they used to have a ball with Teschemakers, which was unbelievably formal. But anyway... I proposed the toast at the College once, at one of the reunions, and I made the point... I said that I knew that I was irrevocably heterosexual when I had to hold my partner's hand during dance practice, my male partner's hand during dance practice.

Kay: [laughs] You weren't comfortable with that?

John: It was very uncomfortable.

Jill: I was thinking that. It's like at an all-boys school, who leads?

John: Well, it's mixed now, but in those days it was boys. And holding a sweaty male hand was definitely not my forte. [laughter] But dance lessons, I can't say they had lessons. We had to learn those dances like the Maxina and the Gypsy Tap, that you've probably never heard of. And the waltz... waltzing and such-like. And the foxtrot and the quick-step, and I didn't ever warm to it. [laughs] And I mean, all you really did at that dance, was you sort of shuffled, I suppose. You know, its just shuffling.

Kay: But you got by.

John: You got by. You know, what is a foxtrot? You know, it's just dancing slowly to pleasant music.

23:17

So the idea was, you met someone and if you had, you know, a second dance with them, or a third dance, and you found you were having a very comfortable time, you would ask if you could take them home. And then... you know, in the Dunedin context you didn't really know what that involved. [laughter] Because, you know, it could be in Opoho or the other end of St Kilda. But I don't quite know how that worked. You'd get a taxi perhaps. But that was the idea, take 'em home. And that would be the start and the end of a relationship, or a relationship that would blossom. And as I say, many, many couples found their life partner at the Dunedin Town Hall dance.

23:57

Jill: So, when everyone was dancing, how much room would there have been between couples. Like would it have been packed?

John: Ah, well that's a huge floor. It's a huge floor, and it wasn't crowded, it wasn't crowded.

Kay: It looks crowded in the photos.

John: Well, it looked crowded. That's what I say, there wasn't room to do sweeping dances.

Jill: That's what I was thinking. That might have made it easier.

Kay: Yes, 'cause you didn't have to be proficient at dancing, 'cause you couldn't show off anyway.

[laughter]

John: Well, so you prompt me, and I'll cover any other issues.

Kay: Well, I just wondered what it was like for you as a man... 'cause they had all the men on one side and all the women on the other. That must have been quite daunting, was it?

John: Uncomfortable... uncomfortable.

Kay: What was it like walking the walk across?

John: Well no, everybody sort of walks... when the dance was announced, everybody sort of moved to ask, so you didn't go by yourself. No, that wasn't daunting. It just wasn't appealing. You know, I've never lacked confidence at all, but it just sort of seemed... it seemed uncomfortable, and... it was because, I mean realistically... certain girls are going to be swooped on, and certain girls are going to be ignored, and that's something that I did feel uncomfortable with. Not that I was prepared to do anything about it.

Kay: [laughs] You didn't rescue any of the wallflowers?

John: Ah, that word alone is horrible... the word 'wallflower'.

Kay: It is. Did you have dance cards when you went, or was that in the past by then?

John: No, we had a dance card at Teschemakers for each dance. But no, never had a dance card, no.

26:09

And of course the University Hops, they used to call them, you know, the famous or infamous Woolstore Hops at capping time, all those things, and the Capping Concert and the Capping Procession, they've all sort of withered. But there were 2,500 students in those days, and now there's 25,000, so... But that Woolstore, they used to have dances in the Woolstore. The one that's go the jagged sort of top, you know I don't know which one it was.

Jill: Ah is it sort of on the one-way?

John: Yes.

Jill: Ah, so it would be where Spotlight is.

John: Yes, it's Spotlight now, yeah. And the wool bails would all be stacked along the side on that side, and antics took place. And of course the... the old... ah, you can't compare the facilities now. But they had dances in the first sort of term in exactly the same format. But somehow they didn't sort of... that seemed more acceptable. I don't quite know why. There was a kind of a... you were in a group of people who shared a common sort of pursuit.

Kay: Yes, and you maybe knew more of them, because you were at university with them.

John: You knew more of them. And, you know, faces that you'd seen before and so on, so...

Kay: Familiar territory.

John: Familiar characters. You know, and during capping time there were extensive social activities. They still now, but they're changed too, you know the Hyde Street Party, and so on.

Kay: Mmm, bring back the dances! [laughs]

John: There's no capping procession now. You may recall the capping procession, which was just a drinking fest, really.

Kay: Yes. There's a toga party now.

John: But it was good. And the University was, and still is, an integral part of the Dunedin social scene.

Kay: So it was perhaps more relaxed at the University.

John: Oh, sort of. You know, you can't put yourself back there. But also, at university level, it's easier to make contact. In what was then the canteen... or just walking through the walkway, or attending a lecture where you see someone who looks rather interesting, and, you know, you can make contact and start a relationship of sorts.

29:08

But for the working guy, who's all day out on a building site, or a mechanic who's under cars, there isn't the same opportunity, post-school, to meet females... and females likewise, working in an office all day, and you don't really have the opportunity to meet a wider world. So, you know, I'd be the last one to criticise it at all, the Town Hall dance, but... the idea just didn't... I didn't feel comfortable with it, you know? And that's because, I suppose, that I... would not hesitate in making contact with someone if I wanted to, which is a matter of confidence, I suppose.

30:08

So Joe Brown was an unusual entrepreneur because he didn't wear smart clothes, and he didn't... he was in no way an orator, but he did what he thought was required, and developed the Miss New Zealand Contest into a significant operation. You couldn't do it today, because that's become obsolete that concept. But they still have Miss World and Miss Universe, don't they? And I guess... I don't know whether we're represented anymore, I've lost... I remember... when he fell... when he should have disappeared from the scene there was a question of whether we'd have a Miss Otago at all, and in association with J.C.s, I think, I convened a group to sort of get... to resurrect it. Just because, you know, we didn't want to be the backwater that couldn't even produce a contestant. But he ran it. And he ran it with class and style.

Kay: When did that start? What decade?

John: When it started in Dunedin? Ah, I'd be guessing. In the 60s perhaps.

Kay: So had the dances finished and then he started on the...?

John: Yes, well no, he would have started when... he was still very much...

Kay: He did both, right.

John: Yeah. He was still going. I mean you could look up somewhere to find out how long it ran for. I really don't know. Probably 20 years or longer.

Kay: And, where were they held?

John: The Miss New Zealand? My dear wife was always a judge in those days. Of Miss Otago, and later Miss New Zealand. Well, the final was held in the Town Hall.

Kay: Here in Dunedin?

John: Yes. And... more than that I don't really remember. There was no need for... you know, that's all there was. It might have been two nights in the Town Hall and the final judging and the crowning was in the Town Hall. That's a sit-down, you know, like a full-house to the final judging of the Miss New Zealand.

Kay: And what did they have to do? Did they have to sort of wear a dress, and...?

John: Ah well, they were interviewed and on stage asked a couple of questions. And they would appear in day-wear, evening wear, and swimsuit I think. I didn't even go to one, really. And Miss Otago itself was quite a big event in those days. He didn't do that. I don't think he had a hand in that. I think he just focused on the Miss New Zealand Contest.

Kay: Do you know what got him into it? 'Cause he's gone from being dance halls to Miss New Zealand. It's quite a departure.

John: No, I don't. Yes, I suppose it is. But he was an entrepreneur.

Kay: Yeah, spotted a gap.

33:48

John: And they were... it all seems a bit historical now, but it was an important part of the Dunedin scene. And I don't think there was anywhere else in New Zealand that had a public dance of that size on a weekly basis. I don't think there was. I shouldn't say that. I don't really know, but it was an institution. And bless him for his enterprise.

Kay: Well, he certainly started a lot of families, didn't he? [laughs]

John: Always maintaining a high standard, you know?

Kay: That's it. That's the key.

John: He was a family man, and had had high principles, you know?

Jill: 'Cause how did you meet him?

John: I met him... personally I only met him through negotiating with my brother-in-law at Wains Hotel, that was all. That was the only contact I had with him. I'm just saying from a perspective of personality, you always felt that he was a father figure, you know, a fatherly sort of guy. He wasn't a flamboyant sort of Miami-type person. He was just a good Dunedin person, with family values.

Jill: So he didn't see you as competition with your Manhatten Lounge and the Town Hall going at the same time?

John: Oh, I don't think so.

Kay: Probably a different audience, wasn't it.

35:28

John: Because it was a different audience. And it was people who were already involved, or... and people made up groups to go to Manhatten. They'd book for eight, or six, or two sometimes. But they already had a partner. That was... that's why we did it, because there was nowhere to go and have live music and have dancing. You didn't take a partner to the Town Hall dance. And the idea was to have a venue where people could take a partner and have a... and have a snack of food, and have some pretty good quality music, and a four-piece band.

Kay: It was the next generation... or the next evolution, I suppose, of the Town Hall dance.

John: Yeah, although you still can't do that, really. You can go for dinner now, or... ah, well La Scala had dine and dance. And occasionally there's things up at Larnach Castle, balls and things. But you still can't go out somewhere and listen to someone... which I've done a few times overseas, someone playing with a bass player, just playing tunes that are immortal, and being served a nice cocktail. You still can't do that.

Kay: Well, there's definitely a gap in the market for that, isn't there?

John: Well I wonder if people would support such an operation, 'cause it's mainly... mainly now you go out for dinner, don't you?

Kay: It's two separate things, isn't it? You either go to a nightclub to dance, or you go to dinner.

John: Well, there's not such thing as... there's nothing approaching a nightclub in Dunedin. And I don't think there is in Auckland, to be honest. 'Cause I spend a lot of time up there. My family's up there, and...

Kay: And us 'oldies', if we want to go and have a boogie, we've got nowhere to go, have we?

John: No, there isn't anywhere to go. But that's just gone out of fashion.

37:48

Jill: We were talking yesterday about getting into the dances. 'Cause what entryway... 'cause the Town Hall's kinda changed now.

John: Well, the old entry, you just came up the stairs and there were two ticket boxes.

Jill: So that was from the Octagon side?

John: No, from Moray Place.

Jill: Ah, ok, so is that the entryway...?

Kay: Just out here, opposite the Filleul Street carpark.

John: That was the only entry to the Town Hall.

Jill: Ah, that's good to know.

Kay: So how would you get into the rock and roll?

John: Just you could walk through.

Kay: So it wasn't a separate entry? It was part and parcel of the night out. It was an extra.

John: It was a second option.

Jill: So was it less formal?

38:27

John: No, no. But different music, and rock and roll dancing.

Kay: It's nice to have that option. So the music didn't bleed over. You didn't hear?

John: No, no. No, had a rock and roll band, and it was less formal. Yes, it was less formal, 'cause somehow that music makes it less formal.

Jill: And so there wasn't the lines of women on one side?

John: Yes, yes, although it was sort of was more intermingled as I remember, but you still had to ask for a dance. It's interesting, when you think about it, isn't it, because I've read about, just finished a novel, which is called "Lessons in Chemistry" which is a really contemporary novel, which just made such a clear picture of... the early 60s and the role of women. As it was then. You know, there was one girl in the Law Faculty when I did Law. There was one in Dentistry, and there three in the Medical School.

Kay: You could count them on one hand.

39:45

John: Just to take that situation within... In the wider world, it was still a world where the lines of... social lines were... clearly delineated, and it was still the wife and mother, you stayed at home, and... it had started to blurr... started to blurr, but still had a long way to go. [laughs] Well, some would say it still has, but... well, certainly in terms of pay equity it has, but...

Kay: But I suppose now men and women tend to work together, so they get to know each other through work even. Whereas in those days they had very different occupations, didn't they? So the women were nurses, and the men were... so they didn't necessarily get together at work.

John: Well, the woman in this novel is a... science... a scientist with a particular focus on chemistry. And, you know, she's a real firebrand of sorts. She's not a liberationist or anything, she just simply does not accept that she can't do this and should do that.

Kay: She's a human being.

John: Yeah. And there were people like that. And it's interesting to just look back and see how that situation has developed. That there were just things that... I mean it wasn't even conscious, I don't think. And I often say that I don't understand it anyway, 'cause I never lived in an environment where the women were subordinate. Certainly not my mother... certainly not my sisters. You know, that was not... not the environment that I grew up in. But nevertheless, there were still areas where women were considered to be inappropriate. Well, not even that, not even inappropriate, it just didn't happen. You could... if you wanted a tertiary education, you became a teacher, a nurse, home science graduate, and BA, do a Bachelor of Arts, or maybe a Bachelor of Science. But to proceed through to medicine, dentistry, law... accounting engineering, they were all male-dominated. So that's social observance, rather than talking about the Dunedin Town Hall, but it's part of it, I suppose.

Kay: Yes, it's part of it, because really the Joe Brown dances happened around all that change, didn't it, when society started to change. And maybe there's an argument for rock and roll being perhaps a catalyst for that, because it eased that relationship between men and women a little, didn't it? You know, it wasn't so... there wasn't that barrier between men and women anymore. 

John: They didn't hold each other anymore, anyway.

Kay: No. It was more equal maybe, you know? You don't get the men leading and the women following. Everybody dances together, don't they?

John: No well, I mean, the stay at home wife and mother... has really become a thing of the past, 'cause women don't wish to be... well, they may be for a period of their life, childbearing and so on, but then they they... hopefully they have something that they want to go back to doing, rather than just being the housewife or the... you know, that's a... dramatic change that's happened over the last 30 or 40 years.

Kay: It's also economics isn't it?

John: It's also econimics.

Kay: Can't afford to stay at home with the children now.

44:05

Jill: 'Cause I was also thinking about... 'cause six o'clock closing would have been at that time as well, wouldn't it? So would people have gone out for a few drinks on a Saturday and then gone to the dances?

John: To the dance, yeah, yeah they would. Yeah, it was never my forte, drinking, but yes they did. And often were inebriated, and then a good reason for a girl to say no thank you, if they suspected that or smelled it. It just wasn't tolerated at all. And, you know, in the country situations, they used to... you know, in a rural community they'd have a dozen in the back of the car, and they'd go out... go out for a for the break, you know.

Kay: Go out for a smoke and a drink. [laughs]

John: And a smoke, yeah. So changing times.

Kay: Yes, indeed. But there's a purity to it, isn't there, just to go out and enjoy the music and dance, and you're not going out for a drink. So much nowadays is involved with drink.

John: Yeah, well maybe less than it was in a way. Although, reading the statistics you wouldn't think so, but... I think we are maturing a wee bit in terms of alcohol, but it's still a big problem in this country, and in other countries as well. Six o'clock closing heralded another new era, and probably also played... and dining out... those things sort of spelled the demise of the Town Hall dance. And other dances. And I don't know... in a sense it was sad, because it made people... it removed a great meeting... a great mutual meeting space. But that's the change of the world.

46:05

Kay: That was something we were going to ask. Do you remember that last dance. Did you go to the last Joe Brown dance?

John: No.

Kay: You didn't? And what happened afterwards? What filled the gap?

John: Well, nothing, I guess. It just... I don't know, people go to parties, and they give dinner parties, and they meet people that way. And they... well the University, I don't think the University has dances anymore. Now there's a good question. I don't think...

Kay: Well, they have the Swing Festival, don't they? It started at the University, but it's come out as the... what do they call it, the... anyway, it's a Swing Dance Festival, which is amazing, and goes on for about four days.

John: Yeah, well the University provides plenty of opportunities for people to meet.

Kay: Yeah, and also lessons. They have dancing lessons. [laughs]

John: Ah, of course they do. And, I mean a different kind of... a whole different energy to dancing, you know different dances now that I would like to learn. You know, the modern dances. But I didn't fancy the Gay Gordons and the Maxina. [laughter] All right, is that...?

Kay: Ah, that's wonderful. Yes, thank you so much. That's great.

John: That's alright.

[recording ends]