Transcript of interview with Brian McMahon for the Dunedin Dance Halls project

Dr Brian McMahon recalls Dunedin Dance Halls, the Joe Brown and St Kilda Dances, as well as Otago University Student Union dances.

Abstract

00:00    Recording identification and introduction

00:44    Verbal permission to record

01:44    Brian's early life

02:24    Learning to dance with Miss Wallis

03:20    Miss Wallis' Friday night dances for school students

03:40    Progressing to the Town Hall dances

04:11    School dances (before they were called 'formals')

05:09    Brian's group of school friends with whom he went to the dances - Otago Boys 1943 to        1947

06:08    Remembering Miss Wallis - tiny, yet formidable

07:55    The cost of attending the dances

08:06    The pianists who played for Miss Wallis, and later the Joe Brown dances

08:33    The names of the dances Brian learnt and how they prepared them well for the adult dances             at the Town Hall

10:16    Boys and girls at the Town Hall - asking the girls to dance

11:06    Dancing important for social skills - not just for girls, all the boys learnt

12:06    Musicians

12:42    Dress code

13:33    Joe Brown and his brother Jim - Naseby, racehorses, the Caledonian Club, the missing      racehorse

15:33    Atmosphere and behaviour at the dances, zero alcohol policy, home brew and pre-loading,       Brian's brother the master brewer

17:33    Saturday sports

18:13    Otago University Golf Team

19:13    The Second World War years - loss of so many young men, continuation of the Joe Brown   dances

21:06    The bands who played at the Joe Brown dances

22:16    Dance cards, wallflowers

23:36    Meeting future spouses at the Town Hall dances

23:56    Brian's wife Margaret, dance skills, cost to go to dances

25:45    Other dances and entertainments - University Students' Union, Lawrence Oliver and Vivien         Leigh visit Dunedin

27:09    Brian's mother at the dances in her day - also taught by Miss Wallis in the 1920's

28:35    The cafe at the Caledonian Club (Joe Brown's mother and sister)

29:12    Suits - where to buy them and tailoring, Charley Saxton, Ascots

31:58    Brian's friends who became Town Hall dance regulars

33:06    How the Town Hall was decorated, radio broadcasts

34:52    Arthur Dickson, RSA Choir, Terry's Book Shop, Beggs Musical Shop

35:50    Kiwi Concert Party

________________________________________________________________________________

00:00

Recording identification. This is an interview with Brian McMahon on Wednesday 7th September, 2022, and the interview started at 3pm. The interview is for the Dunedin Public Libraries He Purapura Marara Scattered Seeds digital archive Dance Halls oral history project. The interviewers are Kay Mercer and Jill Bowie. Occasional comments and questions are contributed by Brian's daughter, Jenny. The interview is being held at Brian's home in Māori Hill, Dunedin. It is recorded on a digital H5 Digital Recorder using Countryman Isomax clip-on microphones.

00:44

Kay: I'm going to press record now, and we'll be recording from now on. So before we go any further, Brian, I want to confirm that you understand that this material is being recorded for archival purposes primarily for the He Purapura Marara digital archive. The recording will be held in the He Purapura Marara Scattered Seeds digital archive www.dunedin.recollect.co.nz, which I will call 'the Archive'. A copy of the recording may be held on repository by Dunedin Public Libraries. Material held in the Archive is freely accessible by the general public as specified in the written recording agreement we've provided for you to sign. Are you happy with that and are you willing to continue with the recording?

Brian: Yes, absolutely.

Kay: Thank you so much.

01:44

Brian: Ok, well I was born in Dunedin, in 1929, 1st December, and delivered up in Nurse Ross' Maternity Hospital as it was in those days, by Mr Charles Greenslade, who was my doctor. In those days he was a very senior surgeon of course, in the town, but they did everything in those days. Like Norman Speight, he delivered a few babies; and Arthur Reid who lived next door pretty much, he was a doctor for the New Zealand Railways. In fact High Street was sort of the Harley Street for Dunedin, really. And Stafford Street was the next door neighbour - one up, one down. So my particular... I didn't have any... I was one of the oldest of two brothers.

02:24

Kay: So, we'll talk about the Town Hall dances now.

Brian: Yeah, that's right. [laughs]

Kay: So you obviously were a frequenter of the dances?

Brian: Well, we started with Miss Wallis, of course. I was just trying to find her in my archive, but I couldn't just find any reference to her. But she was the original. She taught my mother to dance, so she'd been in the business for a long time. So we all... we used to attend the... she had a Wednesday afternoon session after school in her little place above the... it's now called Arkwright's in Manse Street - she had the top floor of that building. She had a pianist, and all the schoolkids used to go along there at four o'clock on a Wednesday afternoon after school. And then Friday nights you would have a dance - started at seven o'clock, finished about 10.30 or 11.

Kay: So, that was for children?

03:20

Brian: Ah, well children... yeah, we were children, I suppose. I started about 19... I was a fourth form boy, I think, when I first started. It was the thing to do in those days. The older chaps encouraged us to go. And Bruce Turnbull was a particular buddy of mine. He became a very upmarket dermatologist here in Dunedin, and he lived nearby. And Kelvin Bremner was another. I served with him in the... he was in the Air Force, joined the Air Force Medical Service some years later.

03:40

Brian: Anyhow, so that was that. So we learned to do our dancing then. And then somewhere about when we ... I think we were still schoolboys, I think, in the last year or so of school, we started to go to the Town Hall dance, because we were all very proficient at the dancing, and so we went along there. So I probably started in the 1940s.

Kay: So you were about 18, were you, or 19?

Brian: I'd be 17 or 18, in those days, yes. And...

Kay: So how did you first hear about the dances?

04:11

Brian: About dancing? Ah...well, because dancing was a big deal for us. I mean, they didn't have school formals, they had school dances, which were very popular in those days. Still are, obviously. The boys used to... an important thing for the boys was to provide a bouquet of flowers for each partner when we went. But other than that we... tended to... well, we wore a suit, of course. And the girls all looked very smart, much smarter than the boys of course, to say the least. It was a big deal. Probably still is, but they now call them formals, and... very important.

Kay: That's right, get their hair done and have their dress made.

Brian: That's right, exactly. I think they probably did a bit then, too, but they probably did it themselves, or their mothers did it. I can't... I don't remember that.

05:09

Kay: So, did you used to go with a group of boys, or did you have a partner that you went with?

Brian: Well, yeah we used to... I'm just trying to think of some of the chaps in my form that I used to go with. Alistair Dick was one. He was a Dunedin chap. And Peter Boag was another. Brian Keane... Keane's, he was a businessman here in Dunedin for a long time thereafter. The trouble is, they're all dead now, I was thinking. I was looking at the class photo. I think I'm the last survivor of that class, so that was Otago Boys from 1943 to '47. And H.P. Kidson was the Rector. In fact, when I was the doctor in Cromwell he became my patient.

Kay: It's a small world, isn't it?

Brian: I thought he was a great chap, actually. I wrote about him at one stage - marvellous fellow really. But at the time in Dunedin he was a miserable old bastard, you know, that bloody Rector fellow. You had to front up to him every now and then when you'd transgressed for whatever reason.

Kay: Yes, it's different at school, isn't it?

06:08

Brian: Well, that's right, it was. So that was school days. And Wednesday afternoon, we would go down and be taught. Miss Wallis was a tiny little lady, very tiny. Nobody ever mentioned about it too. She was very famous in Dunedin as a dancing teacher. She taught all my contemporaries all to dance at the schools.

Jill: Yeah, I was talking to someone last week who mentioned her, and I thought, when you said that name I thought ooh, I wonder what she... so she was very small?

Brian: Very small. Tiny little lady.

Jill: Was she tough, was she...?

Brian: Ah, yes she used to... yes, she called the orders out and we all did what we were told there. And it was a great little... Arkwrights now have got the... I think it's called Arkwrights, but it was a very popular spot, especially on a Friday night, 7.30 'til 10.30 or 11. And that's where we all met, of course. That's where all the kids met most of their lady friends. I mean, Girls High and Otago High were run by the same board in those days, so anything could happen if Otago Boys and Otago Girls were part of it. And so we... but she actually went and visited, I think, Columba and taught at the school. But she didn't need to come to Otago Boys, 'cause we all went to her on a Wednesday afternoon.

Kay: Right, so you went, and girls went at the same time? So you learnt with a girl partner.

Brian: Yep, that's right. Oh, hell yes. They... the girls had somebody to dance with.

Kay: Oh, that's much better isn't it. So you would know that you led, and the girls had somebody to lead them.

Brian: That's right. Ah, well, ha-ha. Well anyhow, that's, that was right, but Miss Wallis, she was a character. So I hope you get a lean on her. I tried to find a photograph of her, but we didn't tend to take many photographs in those days. A Box Brownie and a roll of film was the thing.

Kay: Yes. So it was a bit more complicated to take the picture.

Brian: It was.

07:55

Jill: So did you have to pay to go to those dances?

Brian: Well, I can't remember, no. We paid on Friday night. I think we obviously paid something. We must have paid something, 'cause she had to rent the room, and she had to pay the pianist. I'm trying to think who the pianists were. Eventually, Edgar Fraser was one of them. Edgar Fraser was a brilliant pianist. And he played for Joe Brown later on. And Calder Prescott, too, was the other one.

Kay: Ah, yes?

08:06

Brian: Calder and I grew up together. He lived round in Melville Street. And Calder was a great jazz pianist. I used to feel very sorry for Calder when he had to go home and practice. His mother insisted that he practice, and he did.

Kay: Just as well she did.

Brian: And subsequently he was great.

08:33

Kay: Yes he was, yeah. Can you remember any of the dances that you learnt?

Brian: Well yeah, we learnt all the old... mainly ballroom dancing in the old style. And circular waltz was the number one of course. After that, well if you could master that you could master anything. Then there was the Alberts and the Lancers were the square dances that we learned. And they were very nice. And the... [whistles]. Mazurka... ah, Highland Schottische. Ah, what else? Waltzing... ah, gee, I can't remember the names of them now, but I... if the music goes, I can still pick it up I'm pretty sure.

Kay: So, it just comes back to you.

Brian: It comes back, yes. Probably a few years ago it would have been much better, but now my memory has been sorely taxed by this wretched Parkinsons. Anyhow, so that's where it all started at the... And it wasn't until we got into the relatively senior boys at the school, the last year at high school probably, before we went to the University, that we started going to the Saturday night dances at the Town Hall. But we were all well-equipped. We knew... most of the girls we knew, because they started to go there too. And ah... well, that was a great Saturday night out, really.

10:16

Kay: Do you remember, were all the boys all on one side and all the girls on the other?

Brian: Ah yeah, well the girls used to sit around the room, and  the boys all crowded round one end, down the big stage end. That's right.

Kay: So you were nearest the band?

Brian: Nearest the band, yep, that's right. And ah, well it was pretty good really. And we didn't tend to take partners. I think we all found our partners there. And likewise, it's the same, we did the same performance at Miss Wallis' dance studio, because the girls all sat round the room, and the boys all crowded, and they'd march off across the room to pick their partners.

Kay: So you were very practiced by the time you got to go to Joe Brown's?

Brian: Oh, yeah, we were pretty good, we were very good. We reckoned we were pretty good, anyhow.

[laughter]

Kay: So you were confident.

Brian: And I think we sort of knew how to behave reasonably well.

Kay: So the MC would call out the dance, the next dance, and you'd go off and find a partner?

Brian: Oh, yes, that's right. "Take your partners" and... that's right, and so there'd be... and the old-time dancing was very popular too, I think.

11:06

Kay: Did you have a favourite dance that you liked?

Brian: Can't remember. Ah no,no, Circular Waltz was always very nice, you know heel and toe, heel and toe, heel-toe, heel-toe, you know that sort of stuff. I forget now how it all went but... certainly stood me in good stead for the rest of my life, really. And most of the chaps went and learnt, too. You know, the big... ?? B.R. Bryce Smith and some of these big boys, the big, hefty chaps, that played... the rugby players, they were all good dancers too.

Kay: So there was no sort of sense of oh, you know, it's for girls, kind of thing?

Brian: Oh, hell no, no fear, no, and you had to, because if you couldn't dance you'd be bloody useless going to the school dances and that sort of thing. So it was very important to be able to trip the Light Fantastic, as we called it.

Kay: Fantastic, yes great.

Jill: So, so you remember when they called out the next dance, was it a mad rush to... grab someone?

12:06

Brian: Well, yeah, not really, but everyone would be up and away pretty quickly. Yep. That's right. And the music was always very good. I mean... because eventually the University boys, they... they became one or two good musicians in that school, particularly in the mining... School of Mines. There were one or two chaps there that played the piano, and made music in various forms. So the University was a good place for them, but... I just remember who... Edgar Fraser was a brilliant pianist, though, Edgar was brilliant.

12:42

Kay: Can you remember what you used to wear to the Joe Browns?

Brian: Always wore a suit. Well, in fact, I'd have to say no, we graduated as we got older into the mandatory... the students' dress was the Harris Tweed jacket and the grey slacks. And a shirt and a tie. Usually a tie with the emblem of the University or something on it. You know, one of those. I've still got a drawer full of them, still. Ah, but that was the that was the uniform. No problem about scruffy jeans or things like that. You wouldn't have dreamed of going along in that sort of dress. And the girls of course were very, always like well turned out. But of course we went in school uniform after the, the Wednesday afternoon was school uniform stuff.

13:33

Brian: And that's where it all started really. We would have had... I don't know what we would have had without Joe Brown's Saturday night dance. Joe had come from Naseby. And Jim, his brother... now, what did Jim do? Jim was a well they got into racehorses at one point, too. I mean, Joe, but Jim in particular was the racehorse man. They had a place out in... and Joe Brown's mother and sister owned the... ah, gee... private accommodation and an afternoon tea place out in... the Caledonian, the Caledonian that's it, the Caledonian Club, I think. They were there for some years. Can't remember what the sister's name was, but... yeah, so the mother and sister... And we used to ice skate on Andy Brown's Dam. Andy Brown would be an uncle of Joe's, I think, Joe and Jim. And Jim, I think, won the... didn't he win the Melbourne Cup with a horse called Reformed, I think. He managed to win a Melbourne Cup. My father-in-law was a very keen racing man, of course, Jim Palmer. But he never, he could never manage to get one. He tried like hell, but he didn't manage to win any of the big races. He won the Waikouaiti Cup, and I think he might have... I don't think he won the New Zealand Cup, but certainly... The big two-mile horses were the things to have in those days, and Joe Brown had Reformed. And he won the Melbourne Cup. I think it eventually got stolen, never found. Or no, I think it might have been Stewart Falconer. He also won a... Bagdad Note won the Melbourne Cup. I think his was stolen, never found, that's right. Falconer, hah!

15:33

Kay: What a shame. Can you remember what it was like, the atmosphere of the place?

Brian: Ah, very good, very friendly, always very good. And... I think the drunken behaviour wasn't tolerated in those days. The students were always a bit larikin... like I was one of them, of course.

[laughter]

Every now and then you'd get caught out by having too much to drink, getting in a crowd and... well, not actively vomiting over your friends. But it did happen occasionally I can remember. Well, that was mostly... I'd have to say that wasn't the Saturday night dances, though, that was the because the Town Hall became the great function centre for all the major events that the University held. The University Ball and that sort of stuff was always held in the Town Hall. It was a very popular venue. Even the Concert Chamber occasionally, but it was too small, really, to have a big function. But there used to be some reasonable little gatherings there, too.

Kay: So it was alcohol free, I understand?

Brian: Well yeah, it was supposed to be. Well, you couldn't... you had to take it in you, rather than have it there.

[laughter]

Unless they had a big pocket full of the flask and glass and stuff. I'm sure some of them did. But we couldn't afford that. Spirits were very expensive. So we made our own home brew.

Kay: Oh no!

Brian: Ah, we were good home brewers.

Kay: Goodness. No wonder you were a bit squiffy when you got there!

Brian: My brother became a master brewer, in fact. He worked at Speights.

Kay: Ah, did he?

Brian: Yeah, and then he worked down in Invercargill for some years.

Kay: Oh right. So, self-taught? [laughs]

Brian: Ah, well, no, we were self-taught in the sense that we, he'd provide us with a bit of yeast every now and then, special yeast and those sort of things, which we were able to use to make our beer.

17:33

Jill: Did you play sport on a Saturday?

Brian: Ah, yeah, yeah.

Jill: Did you play sport before you went to the Town Hall dance as well? Was it a...?

Brian: No, well on Wednesday afternoon we would.

Jill: But not on a Saturday.

Brian: On Saturday, no. Unless you were a first XV player, you never got a chance to play on a Saturday. We played golf. I was part of the Otago University Golf Team.

Kay: Ah, right.

18:13

Brian: That's right. And we were a club within a club. In fact, in those days the Otago Golf Club were very reasonable, because so many of the older players there had been university students, that's where they got started. And the Otago Golf Club was a great place, and they fostered the Otago University Golf very heavily in those days. Tom White was the pro. He'd taken over from his father, Bill. And Tom was an accountant in the town. He gave up the accountancy practice, and became the full-time Secretary/Manager of the Otago Golf Club. And then he turned professional and became a professional as well. Tom had won the New Zealand championship. Tony Gibbs, another dentist, he'd won the New Zealand championship. And Andrew Aitkin was another well-know dentist in the town. The dentists seemed to have more time than the doctors, it seemed. [laughs]

Kay: So it was quite a centre for golf, then?

Brian: It was, it was, it was. In those days it was, very much so.

Kay: Perhaps we ought to investigate the golf club as well.

Brian: Yeah, worthwhile.

19:13

Kay: I was wondering what happened during the War, because the men would have gone off to war. Did the women still go to the dances.

Brian: They did, they did, no, they did go to the war... like all silly students in those days,  all the silly young men hoping it would go on long enough so that we could go. But I mean, I had... let's see, 1948 I had my first year at the University. By then, of course, the War was over. But we'd seen some of the chaps leave school... leave school and join the service, and then the next thing we'd hear about them and they'd been killed or wounded in action.

Kay: How tragic. So the Joe Brown dances carried on throughout the War?

Brian: I think so. I think so. Well, they must have done, because... Ah, no, well I'm not sure, no because I wasn't... I wouldn't have... no, I'm not sure just when they started to be honest.

Kay: It was in the 30s, wasn't it, the 1930s.

Brian: Was it? Did Joe Brown start them?

Kay: Yes, yes. And they went for about 30 years.

Brian: Ah, yes, I know. Because I'd long gone when they had the last dance. You mentioned the last dance, well I remember seeing it written up, but we were... we left Dunedin in... '56. I finished medicine in... '56 we left Dunedin and we went to Hamilton, that's right - '56, 7 and 8. '59 we came back to Dunedin for a couple of years, and then we went to Cromwell for 6 or 7 years. And then... and then I joined the army for three years, I thought, and I stayed for 20. Didn't mean to, but I did.

21:06

Kay: Do you remember anything about the bands that played at the Joe Brown dances?

Brian: Well I... no I can't remember. All I can remember is the pianists. Very good. But the... there was plenty of brass. I mean, Joe had been a brass player himself. He was pretty rugged brass player, I don't think he was very good. But Joe used to play some sort of brass instrument. I can't remember what it was. But he never played in the band, of course.

Kay: Right. Did you ever meet him?

Brian: Ah, yes, yes, I met him. He was a pretty friendly sort of chap. But Jim I knew best because I'd had an eye operation in the Stewart Peters Ward of Dunedin Hospital somewhere about 1943 or '44. And Jim had had some sort of serious issue. He was sitting in the bed next to me in the Stewart Peters ward. So I got to know Jim quite well. And therefore, of course, that gave me an entree to Joe... which I sort of kept up... never lost, really. Yes, gosh.

22:16

Kay: And did you have dance cards, when you danced?

Brian: No, no... they didn't have them at the Town Hall. But we had them, of course, at the school dances always. They were very popular, and you had to fill up those wretched cards. Yeah, that was a pain. But however...

Kay: Was that something like homework, was it? You had to fill the dance card?

Brian: Well, you had to make sure that you... well, anyhow that was the way that was. But obviously there'd be the odd wallflower too, left high and dry, which didn't seem to be reasonably fair.

Kay: No. But you did your best to dance with everyone.

Brian: Yes, but that didn't persist to the Town Hall. The girls used to sit around the wall, and the boys would charge across the hall. Pick them out.

23:36

Kay: Did many of your friends meet their future spouses there?

Brian: Ah, hell yes. I think a lot of them did. I'm just trying to think of some of them who might've. Well, by sort of leaving Dunedin... well, being a medical student, I s'pose we... spent... 6, 7 years at the University, 7 years I think at the University, before we finally... Where did I meet Margaret now, I'm trying to remember where I met her... at the hospital, that's right, at work. She was the Ward Sister, that's right.

23:56

Kay: So, did you take Margaret to the dances?

Brian: No, I don't think so. Well, by then we... but I think she'd learned to dance with Miss Wallis. I think Miss Wallis had... she'd gone to Columba and Miss Wallis used to go to Columba College, teach the girls. And she went to St Hilda's as well, I think. I seem to remember... Anyhow, we all knew the ballroom dancing was a big deal. Everybody had to be competent in that. And I must say the chaps were pretty good.

Kay: And they liked to show off, did they?

Brian: Well, yes, some of them were very good. I mean,Bruce Turnbull was a real cracker. We all were very envious of Bruce. He was a big, charming fellow, too. Big redheaded guy. Do you know Bruce? He was a dermatologist here in Dunedin. Great chap. He lived just round the corner from us, here. On the corner of Clermont Street and Highgate, on this side of the road. Just up after the dairy in the dip, and then he was in the corner house.

Kay: Yeah. Ah, fond memories, yes. Have you got a particularly fond memory of the dances that you...?

Brian: Any special memories? [laughs] Not really. No, I don't really have any memory... I can't even remember how much we used to pay, but it wasn't a hell of a lot of money. Two and six, would that be fair enough, would it be? I can't remember.

Kay: Sounds reasonable.

25:45

Jill: Did you go to any other dances at any other halls?

Brian: Ah, well occasionally. Not really, though, not particularly. Only the Town Hall. And subsequently as a student, of course, we had all our major... and Allen Hall, of course was the other place where we used to have a lot. That was the Allen Hall at the University.

Kay: So the University would have run that one?

Brian: Ah, yes, well you see it was in the Students' Union. We entertained various people up there. We had a very famous acting couple. What was their name... oh, dear. Vivienne Leigh and her husband. Who was the husband?

Kay: Oh, Lawrence Olivier?

Brian: Lawrence Olivier. They came to Allen Hall, and we had all these students gathered while they talked to us, yeah, that's right.

Kay: Good Lord! Ah, amazing. That's wonderful!

Jill: So, did they talk about their lives as actors?

Brian: Well, I forget now. Anyhow, we were all very impressed with them. Yeah, Allen Hall, that's right. Well, the Students' Union was run by the students in those days. Ah, we had our own Secretary. She lived along here in Highgate too, what was her name? Gosh... I looked after her, I think, at one point, when she became unwell.

27:09

Jenny: Where did your mother go after she'd been to Miss Wallis'? Did they have dances as well?

Brian: Ah, well, she used to dance a bit. She and Tom used to dance. And my mother, she was taught by Miss Wallis as well.

Kay: Gosh, Miss Wallis must have taught half the population!

Brian: She did. She did. In those days, I mean, she was the... all the convent girls, 'cause she used to go up to St Dominics. She was a good friend of the nuns. And so the nuns were happy to have her up there, teaching the girls to dance. And so Mum was... well, she must have gone there, ah gee, I don't know, in the early '30s I s'pose. When were they married, Jen?

Jenny: Well, Dad, she got married in 1927.

Brian: 1927? So in the 1920s she would have been going to... up to the... Miss Wallis would have been around in those days.

Kay: Yes. So she might have gone to the Joe Brown dances when they first started, perhaps.

Brian: No, I don't think so. No, I don't think so. I don't think Joe had started them by then. I'm not sure what year he started them.

Kay: Some time in the 30s.

Brian: What year was it? 1920's was it?

Kay: It was in the 30s.

Jill: Yes, it was after a rugby game. He started it after a rugby game as part of the celebrations, yeah.

28:35

Brian: In the 30s. Yeah, that's right. Well his mother and sister they owned a... had this place out in The Caledonian Club anyhow for a long time.

Jill: Was that... sort of like a cafe, or was it a dance...?

Brian: No, it was a cafe. Cafe, and I think it... I think it, they, also it might have been rental properties too. You could... sort of a motel type thing.

Kay: Whereabout was it?

Brian: Well, it's where the Caledonian...

Kay: The ground is?

Jenny: The Caledonian ground is... next to where the Warehouse is. Where the bowling green was, next to there.

Brian: That's right, next to the bowling green. Ah, that's right. Gasworks. The Gasworks was out there too. Just short of the Gasworks, on that side. Gosh, yeah.

29:12

Jill: Where did you buy suits from in those days?

Brian: Ah, well, we... ah, three-piece suits were very popular. Double-breasted too, a lot of them double-breasted suits. Crumbs! I might have some here, have I?

Jenny: No, didn't Charley Saxton...?

Brian: Ah, Charley Saxton, yeah. But Charley didn't... he'd been at the War of course. He didn't come back to set up his shop. We all bought our Harris tweed jackets from Charley Saxton. He was in Lower Rattray Street.

Jill: So, were they tailored?

Brian: Well, Charley wasn't a tailor, but he might have worked for Ascot's at one stage. But he'd come back from the War, he and Willis Perriam. Gosh, yeah, Charley Saxton.

Jenny: But when you got your first suit to go to the Joe Brown dances, where did you go?

Brian: Ascot. Ascot, you know, the one along in... it was along in the building adjacent to where you are... to where the Library is. There was a shop there that... whereabouts Jen? Ah, you wouldn't have known about it... you wouldn't have know either. Just opposite the European Hotel. The European Hotel was on the corner of... the little lane, that little short street that went off to... Bath Street, that's right. That's right, the European. Carl Larson owned that pub in those days.

Kay: Right, and that was near there. So, did you often buy a new suit, or did you make one last?

Brian: Ah well, no made it last. I mean... ah, of course we... we wore suits to school, of course. Otago Boys and senior boys always had the two-piece suit. Kings High started the open neck shirt and the shorts. But once you got to the fourth form you were allowed to wear long trousers at Otago Boys. Some of the chaps still stuck with the shorts.

Jill: Did you have to have all your shoes nicely polished?

Brian: Oh, hell yeah. That'd be right, yeah, polished shoes. Yeah, well s'posed to [chuckles]. Scuffed them a little bit coming to school each day. Gosh yeah.

31:58

Kay: So, did you get ready with your friends, when you were going to the dance, when you were older?

Brian: Well, everybody... we always knew who was gonna go, who was going to go, I think, the regulars. Nigel McPherson was one. He subsequently lived down... he married one of the girls... now, who did he marry? One of the girls from... Wardells. Wardells were a grocery business. And they lived round in York Place. And she was a Columba girl. And Nigel and I were close mates. Graham Ellis, now Graham Ellis, he was Ellis... he was another classmate at the school. I was just looking it up. I think it's in one of those books I've got there, Jenny, isn't it? I've got some photographs of the sixth formers.

Kay: Ah. Have you got any photographs of you all dressed up, ready to go to the dance?

Brian: No.

[laughter]

Brian: Don't think so.

Kay: Can but try.

Brian: [showing a school photo] Oh, that's it. It's in that one, that's right, him there.

Kay: Ah, right, yes.

Jill: Great photo!

33:06

Jenny: Did they decorate the hall when you went to the dances?

Brian: No. Ah, the school halls used to be decorated, yes. But not the Town Hall. Although they used to put a bit of stuff around the place.

Kay: A bit of bunting or something?

Brian: A bit of stuff around the edge of the Gallery, 'cause the Gallery was alway open, of course. People would often sit up there and look down on the team below.

Kay: Oh, did you ever listen... 'cause later certainly they had radio. They recorded, or they broadcast the dances on the radio. Were they doing that when you were there?

Brian: Oh, yes, that's right. Sure, well I mean they had that little booth there. The little booth by the side of the stage. On the left hand side of the stage, looking at it, was the little shack where they kept all the gear for the sound systems.

Kay: Right. Did you ever listen to it on the radio?

Brian: I think so. I think we might have done, occasionally, and the sound system was interesting. I forget the name of the company that ran it. Of course then  it was subsequently used a lot. I saw a lot of it, of course, in the days when we had the RSA Choir. We used to have our concerts in the Town Hall. Arthur Dickson. Arthur Dickson was a great character. He ran Terry's Book Shop. Arthur was a brilliant pianist.

34:52

Jill: Ah, Terry's Book Shop comes up a lot.

Brian: Yeah, well it was a very famous place, really, Terry's. And Arthur was a great character. I don't know when he went in there, but he bought it and worked out of there for a very long time. In fact, they had a big musical place then. Beggs used to be the musical centre. It was again opposite... I think it was next door to where the European Hotel was, opposite you again, where you presently are. Beggs Musical Shop. Ah no, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, no Beggs. I think it was along under the City Hotel area, which is now Otago House.

Kay: Ah, there, right, yes.

Brian: Yes, Arthur Dickson gosh! He was a larrikin. Well, of course we were heavily influenced in our latter days by the Kiwi Concert Party, of course. That's how we...

Kay: What were they about?

35:50

Brian: The Kiwi Concert Party was run by New Zealanders who were part of the World War 2 group of chaps.

Kay: So, would they have visited overseas soldiers?

Brian: Ah, they were all servicemen. They started in the Middle East. And some of their 'ladies' were better than the average lady too! Wally Prickter, he was a great character. Crumbs, Wally! Ivan Hannah was another one of the great tenors. Lindsay Brown, of course, L.C. Brown, Brown's Bikes in Lower Stuart Street. And Lindsay's father was the chief of the Salvation Army. He was Colonel Brown. And Lindsay was the ratbag. He was the real... a real rascal, crumbs! Anyhow, Lindsay became one of our great mentors when we were students. By gosh, we got up to some rascally behaviour with him. But ah... ah, gosh!

Kay: Ah, that's lovely. Ah, well thank you so much. We don't want to take up too much of your time. And we really appreciate that, thank you.

Brian: No, no. Pleasure.

[recording ends]