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Otago Vintage Machinery Club - interview with long-term members Ron Holdaway and Bob Sims

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DescriptionOtago Vintage Machinery Club
Interview with Ron Holdaway and Bob Sims
Wednesday 31st August 2022

This interview was conducted in the break room at the OVMC and was recorded on a voice recorder app (Voice Memos) on an Apple iPhone 13 Pro. The interviewer was Kay Mercer, Digital Archivist for Dunedin Public Libraries. The interview was conducted for the Scattered Seeds digital archive (www.dunedin.recollect.co.nz), and Ron and Bob gave their permission for the interview to be added to the archive and made available to the general public.
____________________________________________________

ABSTRACT
00:00 Introductions by Ron Holdaway and Bob Sims
04:01 The aim of the Club
06:51 1910 Merrlees engine from Glendermid
Tannery, Sawyers Bay, Dunedin
09:51 1929 Ruston 7HE engine from Kempthorne
Prosser, Burnside, Dunedin
11:51 1996 the need for museum premises to house
the engines
12:21 Ruston 7HE specifications
14:01 Museum visiting hours for the public, group
bookings and contact information
17:01 Merrlees specifications
18:41 Standout exhibits - Ron's and Bob's
favourite pieces in the museum:
19:01 1877 water-powered motor (Ron)
21:31 Orion (possibly H.E. Shacklock)
engine (Bob)
22:51 Links to Dunedin's industrial heritage -
Cadbury's, Bell Tea
23:04 Museum's working telephone exchange
25:37 Water wheel from Anderson's Farm, Outram
26:52 Southland tin mill
27:52 Lathe used in Outram for making amunition
during 2nd World War
29:27 Restoration policy
____________________________________________________

00:00
Interviewer: So, thank you so much for having me. It's a real pleasure to be here at the Otago Vintage Machinery Club. Can you start by introducing yourselves and telling me a little bit about your involvement with the Club and what the Club does?

Ron: I'm Ron Holdaway, and I've been in the Club for approximately 40 years, and usually come out here once a week to restore and socially, ah, meet other members and things like that, members of the public. And we fix up old machinery and get it going again, for demonstration purposes mainly... and enjoyment.

Interviewer: And for historical preservation?

Ron: Yes, yes, that also, yes. And we built the buildings by... ah, voluntary labour - all the Club members put these building up.

Interviewer: How many buildings are there here?

Ron: This one and the other one down the... Two large buildings, yeah. To house all this vintage gear and machinery. And, ah I wasn't here right at the beginning of the Club. The Club started about two or three years earlier than when I started. So, about 43 years ago. Yeah. And, ah, I was impressed by what was going on at an open day, and a display at Allanton actually.

Interviewer: Ah, okay, yeah.

Ron: And thought it was the right thing for me to do to join.

Interviewer: Mmm. What about you Bob?

Bob: Well, I'm Bob Sims, and like Ron I'm a bit vague about when I started, but it was about... slightly less number of years than he has, and everything he said I can agree with. I might add that some of the buildings we put up, we used people doing community service as labourers, and that was an interesting era. And yes, we built all the buildings ourselves. I think we might have had a professional for that one concrete floor in the other building.

Ron: Yes, I think we did.

Bob: And filled with machinery, as Ron said. And latterly we're discovering that we're picking up a lot of machines that have industrial heritage for Dunedin.

Interviewer: Mmm. So do you focus quite a bit on the Dunedin area?

Bob: Well, yes, 'cause Dunedin is a big city, landwise. It goesway up to Middlemarch and all over the place, so... but we've been known to go outside Dunedin for getting interesting exhibits. Just trying... well, we've had stuff from Christchurch... all over the place. If it's interesting, and it's for nothing, we try and get it.

[laughter]

04:01
Interviewer: Yes. What's the aim of the Club? What do you...?

Bob: I would say the aim of the Club is to preserve and maintain, and hopefully have operating, historical machineries. And machines, incidentally, are anything that gives you a mechanical advantage. So, an electric iron used in a kitchen is a machine. And of course we've got a few examples of them in places. So that's what we try and do.

Interviewer: So your aim is to get things running. It's not like a museum where it's a static display.

Ron: No.

Interviewer: It actually... hopefully will run eventually and show you how it would have worked in its time?

Ron: Yes, in an original format, and try and get it going the way it was meant.

Interviewer: Yes. So when you are looking at a new exhibit, do you look at it with the eye of are we going to be able to get this to go again?

Ron: Yeah, we'll take it on regardless.

Interviewer: Right. You'll take the challenge.

Ron: But it's a benefit to us, satisfaction-wise, to see it run again. And it's quite exciting, as you can imagine, with the rust and... to see that run for the first time, after it was a pile of rusting metal just lying down Kaikorai Valley somewhere. And I don't think any money changed hands to get it, either.

Interviewer: Right. So all the people who work here are volunteers?

Ron: Yes.

Interviewer: Yeah, and how many do you have usually?

Ron: Well, Wednesday is our work day for the week, and what you see today, about 10 or more people come then. Some of the members can't come, 'cause of their work, but... ah, we also have a monthly meeting held in the school, to discuss the business and financial things to do with the Club.

Interviewer: Yes, so it's a big job for everyone, if you've got around about 10 people working all these huge machines. It's, yeah, a lot of work.

Ron: I've put a fair bit of time into it over the years. And some of the other members, as you saw today, they're all doing work somewhere around the place.

Interviewer: Mmm, yes, so they obviously do it for love and they have a passion for this sort of thing. Fantastic.

Ron: Yes.

06:51
Bob: Just a comment about working exhibits. There's a... the document here is about the Merrlees, and... ah, in 1996 the Club Vice President, Ernie Bell, was told by senior representatives of the owners of Sawyers Bay Tannery that the Merrlees engine was now in the care of Otago Vintage Machinery Club, and was to be erected in their museum as a working exhibit.

Interviewer: Right, so it was a specification of them donating, yeah.

Bob: We failed them up to now.

[laughter]

Interviewer: You're getting there though - it's a work in progress.

Bob: But we'll get there, yeah, we'll get there.

Interviewer: So, tell us a bit about the Merrlees. That's one of your projects, isn't it?

Bob: Well, yes. Mr Merrlees, in the late 1800s, visited Germany to talk to Mr Diesel, and subsequently got the UK patents for making Diesel engines. And his first engine, I think, was built in 1898, and was originally, ah, in the Science Museum in London, but I think it's now in the Anson Museum, which is in Manchester I think. [nb: Pointon, Chester] So, they built the first Diesel engine, and I think that might have been the third Diesel engine ever built. Our engine is number 49, I think, and it was shipped to Dunedin in 1910. But it wasn't the first Merrlees to come to New Zealand. There was a bigger engine that went to, we think, Kaiapoi a year earlier. So 1910 it was shipped here, and it was at Glendermid Tannery, Sawyers Bay, where it drove line shafting, which was a long shaft with lots of pulleys and belts going down to various machines.

Interviewer: And those machines could hook onto the line shaft to work at various points during the day?

Bob: Yeah. Then gradually, over the years, they put in electric motors on machines, and replaced the Merrlees by ... in the 1950s, with a Chrysler marine engine.

Interviewer: So, when did you acquire the Merrlees for the Museum or the Club?

Bob: Umm, I'll do a bit of research. You talk to Ron, while I just find the date.

[laughter]

09:51
Interviewer: Carry on. Now Ron, you've just been showing me an amazing engine. Do you want to tell me a bit about that one? You had it running.

Ron: Yes, it's a Ruston, and it's a model 7HE. Now, 7H is the model number of the engine. The 'E' stands for electrical generation. So it's a specially-designed engine to generate electricity. It has a heavier flywheel than the engines with a different use that aren't generating... to drive, like Bob says, line shafting, and things like that. It... the one we have was generating electricity for Kempthorne Prosser down at Burnside in Dunedin, and it was commissioned there in 1929. And, ah, it's not particularly old, but it's old enough we feel.

Interviewer: Yes, and yet it's running like a charm, I can verify.

Ron: Yes, and when we got it, it was just a rusty pile of metal. And we had to get several parts - the bronze bearings and that, made by local engineers to get the machine going again... which we did. And it ran for the first time about 40 years after it had run before... in the business... and in 1996 at 12.45pm it fired up for the first time.

Interviewer: Mmm, exciting. So, did you have a party or an opening... or a nice cup of tea?

[laughter]

11:51
Ron: Not really, but the... we but that engine being available to us, we decided, well the Club better have a museum to put it in.

Interviewer: Ah, so really that was the launch of the visitor side of things.

Ron: It was. So that's when we bought parts of buildings and reassembled it here. That's this section through there. And from then on it's grown.

12:21
Ron: The engine does 260 revs per minute, and the flywheel travels at 70 kilometres per hour on the outside of the rim. So it's travelling a long way, if you like.

Interviewer: Yes, it is, yes. And yet it's quite quiet. It's not... it's... I thought it would be deafening, but it's a beautiful-running machine.

Ron: Yes, it is quite quiet. And we need... you can't just get a crank handle or press a button to start it, you've got to build up air pressure to about 200lbs per square inch, or 1398 kps, kilopascals, to get it turned over... to crank it, because you'd never be able to do it with a crank handle, for instance. But it seems to do the trick with compressed air to start it.

Interviewer: Yes, it runs very well, yeah. So it took you about 3/4 of an hour to get it...

Ron: To build up the pressure from zero, 'cause it... being wintertime, we haven't started it much over the winter, because we close our open days during the winter months, and it'll be open again... shortly.

Interviewer: So when can people come and visit?

14:01
Ron: Any Sunday afternoon, between Labour Day and... not sure of the date, but during finer weather. And Wednesday when we're here too, for just Club day you might say.

Interviewer: Oh, so people can come along on a Wednesday too? Oh, I thought I was special! [laughs]

Ron: Yes, we'll show them through. We have groups as well.

Bob: And we possibly could open for a group, if we had the people available.

Interviewer: Yes, on request. So, to find out the times that you're open, or to check that you're open on a given day, would people go to your Facebook page?

Ron: It's in the paper. Inside the back page.

Interviewer: In the ODT?

Ron: Yeah.

Bob: And there's always a... sometimes it's in twice to fill up space!

Interviewer: So people can find out that way. Yeah, lovely.

Ron: Yes. And we used to have school classes come through. The children are quite interested in a lot of these things.

Interviewer: I bet they are, yes, yes. So if anyone is listening and wants to book a tour, or just to check something, can they get in touch somehow?

Bob: It would be with Neil. [nb: 027 473 3035 (Preferred) or email neilgamble8@gmail.com] And I'm sure it's in that ad that's in the paper, too, I'm sure it's got contact details.

Interviewer: Yes, and I think you're on Facebook as well, so people can look up Otago Vintage Machinery Club, and get your contact details there. And we should say that you're based in Outram, just off George King Memorial Drive. So just up on the hill there, overlooking the Taieri.

Ron: Yes, by the water tank. People seem to know that water supply filler for the township.

Interviewer: That's right, and if you're based in Outram and you hear the horn going, that usually means you're up and running for the day, doesn't it?

Bob: It does, I s'pose.

Ron: Yeah, we don't want to annoy the neighbours too much.

Interviewer: Oh, it's quite comforting. I like it. [laughter] And the horn is from a...

Bob: Ah, if you're polishing your boat, you'd be safe!

Interviewer: I was going to say, because the horn came from a lighthouse, so you'd feel quite... yeah, the fog's coming and mind the rocks!

Ron: You can hear it in Mosgiel, and ah...

Interviewer: Oh, really? I didn't realise it went that far.

Ron: And the other side of the Taieri and the airport.

Interviewer: So it's a good advert really, to say you're open.

Ron: Yes.

Interviewer: What about you, Bob, did you find the dates?

17:01
Bob: Yes, to answer your question...

Interviewer: So that was when you acquired the Merrlees.

Bob: On August 13th, 1996 it was handed over to the Club. I'm not sure how long after that it actually got out here, but I imagine it would be quite a while.

Interviewer: It must have taken some doing to get it up to the...

Bob: Well, it went into town for a while, and some work was done in town before it came out. And the sheer weight of it is the problem. The Flywheel weighs four-and-a-half tonne. I'm not sure what the weight of the complete engine would be.

Ron: No, I haven't got that information. I know the other casting was 12 tonne, or 12 plus tonnes. I've got that information.

Bob: Yeah, so you're looking at a pretty heavy thing.

Interviewer: Yes, indeed, so it's not gonna budge.

Bob: Probably got a good scrap value.

Interviewer: Ahhh! But you wouldn't do that!

Bob: No, we wouldn't do that.

Interviewer: And you're currently working on... hopefully at some point getting it running again. That's the aim.

Bob: Yes, indeed. So, any other devastating questions?

Interviewer: Devastating questions? [laughter] What are your favourite elements of the Museum. Do you have particular machines that you really love working on, or any real special things that you think, "We are so lucky we've got this."

18:41
Ron: The older it is, the more enthusiastic we get, I think.

Interviewer: Yes, I'll bet.

19:01
Ron: I've got an 1877, It think it is roughly, a water motor. It runs on domestic water supply. They probably wouldn't consider it these days, though, I don't think the DCC would like us running engines on the pressure of water in their pipe, but in the early days they used it quite often really to drive church organs, because they were very quiet, these water motors. And they'd run on the pressure of water, either in a private supply, like a farm with a bit of a reservoir up the hill, or...

Interviewer: So anything with a bit of pressure?

Ron: With a wee bit of water pressure. This one runs on 27lbs per square inch... quite fast. But very little noise, almost no noise.

Interviewer: Sounds idyllic. [Laughs]

Ron: Which is well worth considering in some applications.

Interviewer: So what would you use that for?

Ron: Driving small machinery. It's not powerful, sort of thing, but it... the one I have is more of an industrial engine, not a church... doesn't drive the air pumps for the church organs, but it's for small machinery, that sort...

Interviewer: So it would have been used on a farm, or...?

Ron: Yes. They're quite rare now, being made in the 18th century. But much quieter.

Interviewer: And cleaner than a petrol generator, or Diesel generator, yeah.

Ron: Yes, I suppose it would be a lot quieter than some petrol engines nowadays.

Interviewer: Well, there might be a lot of call for that one day soon. As we're running out of fossil fuels.

Ron: Yeah. [laughs] Pity it's not portable. We'd do away with chainsaws and lawnmowers perhaps.

Interviewer: What about you, Bob, have you got a favourite, or a real special... you know, something that makes you proud to own?

21:31
Bob: You mean the Museum owns? I don't have any machines now, I've got rid of them all. I think the most interesting thing for me is an Orion engine... inverted commas, "we think". And the reason Orion was that... if it is an Orion, it was made by H.E. Shacklocks.

Interviewer: That's the one you showed me earlier, yes, yes.

Bob: Which is a Dunedin... old Dunedin manufacturing, that was taken over by Fisher and Pykel. And it's interesting because I worked for them for about 40 years.

Interviewer: Ah, so you have a connection?

Bob: Yes. But, yeah, so I'd really like to identify that if we could.

Interviewer: So, as well as putting machinery together, rescuing it effectively, and getting it running, you also do research on them to get the background and the story behind them, don't you?

22:51
Bob: Yes, yes. And that's two aspects: the history of the company that built them, and the history of the people who owned them, for the industrial type exhibits. It's quite interesting when you think of Cadbury's, Bell Tea, people like that.

Interviewer: Yes.There's a real snapshot of various times during Dunedin's history here.

23:04
Interviewer: There's all sorts of eras and... I'm looking at telephones over there, 'cause you've got a working telephone exchange here. So you can actually use 'phones around the buildings. There's some fabulous... everywhere you look, there's something and you think "Oh, this works!" It's really incredible. So how many... I mean, what can people expect when they come here? How many exhibits? Can you put a number on it, or... you know, what would you want to let people know that they can see when they come here?

Bob: Ah, machinery, that's about it. It is a museum, but it's not a professional museum, because we just get an exhibit and we find a place to put it, and it's... I'd probably say it's quite cluttered.

Interviewer: I think it's quite well laid out. I've seen worse! [laughs]

Bob: Well, that's true, but...

Interviewer: You can certainly walk around it very comfortably.

Bob: Well, we do... we're conscious of the public coming in, so we have health and safety... that terrible word [chuckles]. But yes.

Interviewer: And you've got things grouped in collections, so it's... you know, whether it's domestic or industrial, or agricultural, or... so there'll be something to please quite a lot of people, and certainly the kids would really enjoy having a look around.

Bob: Yes, yeah. And particularly if... when you hear... when we start something up, it adds another dimension.

Interviewer: Yes, it does. I mean, I'm not a mechanical person, but just when you started that machine earlier, it was just... I found myself grinning, 'cause it was just so lovely to see it running, and to hear the sound of it, and... yeah, it was fabulous, so yeah.

Bob: Well there's a lot of running things. You see that picture behind you? That's building a bridge somewhere on the Taieri, and the machine that took the concrete is just sitting outside.

Interviewer: Oh, the actual machine? So you can link historical photos to the machines that are in the photos.

Bob: Yeah, and demonstrate it working.

Interviewer: Fantastic!

Bob: You can always come back again if you want.

Interviewer: I would love to, yeah. And if you think of any stories you want to tell me, or... so if you get a...

25:37
Ron: It's more things... isn't it? Like, there's the water wheel, for instance. I don't know whether you'd...

Interviewer: Oh, you've got a water wheel?

Bob: Yeah, where did we get that water wheel? Yeah, that water wheel came from up the hill.

Interviewer: Oh, right. So it was from a working farm was it?

Bob: Yeah. And it was down in the... It had to be entirely rebuilt, but all the iron work was there. Wood is easy to recreate, but... Bob: Do you know John Anderson?

Interviewer: Ah, yes. That's an old Taieri name.

Ron: Yes, he lives down in Outram too.

Bob: Yeah, but his farm's up the hill. So that came from that farm, I think, if my memory serves me right. But because we've collected stuff all over the South Island, sometimes it gets a bit confusing.

Interviewer: But that's why you do that research and you put the information up and you've got it there, haven't you, so...

26:52
Bob: Well, we should be labelling a lot more stuff. That big tin mill down there that you may or may not have noticed, we got that from way down South, Waimea or somewhere like that. And the farmer brought it up for us, 'cause it's huge.

Interviewer: What sort of a mill was it?

Bob: Tin. They call 'em a tin mill, and they were the ones that they... they cut the wheat or the grain and stooked it. You know about stooks?

Interviewer: Ah, yes, stand them up.

Bob: Carted it to the tin mill, and threw it into the tin mill, and it was driven... in the early days by traction engine, latterly by a tractor. And that shook all the grain out and so you could bag it. I'll show you when you come out.

Interviewer: Yes, lovely! Yeah, well if you... again if you... you know, any other stories. Or you can just call me in again if anyone wants to talk to me.

Bob: Well, I think Tony was supposed to talk to you, but I don't where he's disappeared to.

27:52
Ron: There's still the lathe we use there in the workshop. It's got a story. It was used in a private workshop. The guy lives in Outram... or he lived. I think he's moved on now. But he made amunition on that lathe for the second world war.

Interviewer: Good heavens! That's got a story then, hasn't it? Gosh!

Ron: [chuckles] Yes. And I restored it to working as a... not necessarily an exhibit, it was more of a tool for ... as we use it.

Interviewer: Not for bullets, I hope. [laughter]
That's amazing. Well it's really great that the things you've got here, you use them for other things. And they actually contribute to the museum, the running of the museum, as much as being an exhibit.

Ron: Oh, a lot of them do yeah. Yes.

Interviewer: That's great. It really is a... what you'd call a point of difference about the Club. It's definitely functional, isn't it? Practical, yeah, it's not just for looking at.

Ron: I think the membership at the moment's in the 30's, around there. Some don't come here very often. And...

29:27
Bob: And then of course some people over-restore. Some people just get it running, so...

Interviewer: Yes, so what's your philosophy? Is it just a gentle touch and have it functional?

Bob: Well... I think...

Interviewer: Or is it somewhere in between?

Bob: I think to get it as near original as possible. But sometimes you've got to cheat and use modern engineering, haven't you Ron?

Ron: Mmm.

Interviewer: When you haven't got any option, yeah.

Bob: And... yeah, so... yeah, that's it.

Interviewer: But it still represents, and looks, and feels as it would have done?

Bob: Well, it's a bit like dates. The people who used it are well gone, so they can't... can't argue!

[laughter]

Bob: Well sometimes they argue.

[laughter]

Interviewer: So it's a close guess.

Bob: Well, I'm not sure if that helps you or not.
Well, it does. That's been wonderful. Thank you so much for letting me come today and spending so much time with me. I really appreciate that.

Bob: Oh, well I just wander around doing nothing now. I'm past it.

[laughter]

But you obviously love the cameraderie. You come up here for... the friendship, yeah.

Bob: Well, it's the group. Yeah.

Ron: It's the conversations at lunchtime, really. It... we get... it's quite good to get together in a group.

Interviewer: It's nice to have that, isn't it?

Ron: Yeah.

Bob: And it's not uncouth.

Interviewer: No, you were all very polite. I sat and had my lunch with you, and I didn't feel out of place. I felt like I'd had my lunch with a group of gentlemen today, yeah.

[laughter]

Bob: Ah, they're probably on their best behaviour.

[laughter]

Interviewer: I'd better go so they can do a bit of swearing! [laughs]So, thank you very, very much.I'll turn off the recording now. I really appreciate it, thank you.

[Recording ends]

Last edited by: Kay Mercer