Transcript of interview with Doug and Rae Hankin

A transcript of an interview, recorded as part of the Dunedin Public Libraries' oral history project on the effects on the Dunedin community of poliomyelitis outbreaks in the 1940s and 1950s. Interviewees are Doug Hankin, who contracted polio at the age of two, and his wife Rae Hankin who has recollections of conversations with Doug's mother about Doug's experience with Polio. Doug attended the Duncan Hospital in Whanganui for treatment. In this interview, Doug talks about his childhood, his time at the Duncan Hospital, how he has lived with the after-effects of polio, and latterly how he has been affected by post-polio. Rae and Doug also compare the polio epidemic in New Zealand with the current COVID pandemic.

RECORDING IDENTIFICATION

This is an interview with Mr Doug Hankin and his wife, Mrs Rae Hankin, on 8th June 2022, and the interview started at 1pm. The interview is for the Dunedin Public Libraries' He Purapura Marama Scattered Seeds Digital Archive Polio Oral History Project. The Interviewer is Kay Mercer.

The interview was conducted via Zoom.The interview was recorded using the Zoom in-house recorder, and the audio was subsequently recorded to a WAV file for archive purposes.

ABSTRACT

00:00    Introduction and approval

01:33    Doug talks about his childhood

02:18    Doug's early memories of polio, calliper and crutches

05:03    Doug remembers initial stays in Whanganui Public Hospital and early treatments for polio at       the Duncan Home for poliomyelitis, the Kenny method of physiotherapy, and Mr Bell the             physiotherapist who looked after the children at the Duncan home

08:19    Rae (Doug's wife) recalls what Doug's mother told her about the time Doug contracted polio        - the pain of being separated from her son while he was in isolation in hospital

09:45    Doug's mother's fear that, as a widow her children would be taken from her - trying to raise              three children, one disabled with polio

11:03    Having to get permission to Doug to be accepted at school, as there was no automatic right to education for disabled schoolchildren; Doug's mother taught him to read

12:11    Doug recalls how his mother, a nurse, would check whether he had feeling in his legs by       sticking a pin in them while he wasn't looking

14:19    Doug talks about how his father died from Crohn's disease when Doug was very young -   contracted during WW2

15:06    Doug recalls children at school getting the Salk vaccine; Doug was the only child at his school          with polio

19:32    Doug's recollection of the Duncan Home in Whanganui

22:14    Doug's memories of having hot pack treatment, the Kennedy Treatment, at the Duncan           Home

23:43    Schoolwork through the correspondence school - nurses and patients at the Duncan Home     would help the children with schoolwork

26:18    Being children at the Duncan Home - getting up to mischief - the Matron let them be        children

28:06    Having to wear long woollen socks because polio children felt the cold - sliding around the              corridors on their stockinged feet

33:48    After the Duncan Home wore a calliper as a young boy and learned to walk on crutches,       which stood him in good stead in this later years. Learned to fall without hurting himself

38:35    Callipers heavy and uncomfortable, yet Doug recalls joining in with sports and games at       school - anecdotes of what he got up to at school

41:37    Doug talks about life after school - working, taking a road trip across Australia

46:08    Doug talks about his experience of Post-polio syndrome - no-one had known about the     possibility of Post-polio until decades after epidemics. Little understanding in the    current medical profession

53:49    Past knowledge of polio patients destroyed with computerisation as records hadn't been accessed in so long

55:15    Comparing the effects of polio with the effects of COVID-19, particularly school lockdowns     and the impact on education and mental wellbeing, and in the long term on the economy;             comparing home-schooling then and now

________________________________________________________

00:00

Kay: Ok, so we are recording now, and you should get a wee message I think, on your screen, to confirm that. So, before we go on, Doug, I'm just going to say this... ah, just confirm verbally that you agree to this. So, before we go any further, I want to confirm that you understand that this material is being recorded for archival purposes primarily, for the Dunedin Public Libraries He Purapura Marara Scattered Seeds digital archive polio project. The recording will be held in the He Purapura Marara Scattered Seeds digital archive, the address for which is www.dunedin.recollect.co.nz. And I'm going to call that 'the Archive' because that's very long. A copy of the recording may be held on repository in digital form by Dunedin Public Libraries. So, it's just the file itself in our files. Material held in the archive the bit that goes online, is freely accessible by the general public as specified in the written recording agreement we have provided for you to sign, and which you have kindly signed and sent back to us. Are you happy with that, and are you willing to continue with the recording?

Doug: Yes

Kay: Perfect, thank you so much. Right, I'm just going to get my questions up, so I keep us on track. But really, as I say, this is more of a chat, and you can go off-topic, or however you want to do it, it's entirely up to you. I'm just going to try and move this file over here so I can still see you. That's it.

01:33

Kay: So, we'll start with, whereabouts are you based, Doug?

Doug: Ah, at the moment Whitby  Retirement Village in Porirua.

Kay: Lovely, not far from Wellington, is that right?

Doug: Not, no it's pretty close, about 30k.

Kay: Nice. And where did you grow up?

Doug: Umm, mainly in Palmerston North. Ah, I was born in Whanganui. I moved to Palmerston North when I was two, just after I got polio. And then, ah, I grew up in Palmerston North, left home about '69, came to Wellington. And I've been mainly in Wellington.

02:18

Kay: Nice. Ok. So you were very young when you contracted polio. Do you... what's your first recollection? When did you first hear about polio as a thing?

Doug: Ah, well I've got some photos, early photos of my third birthday in the Duncan Home for Polio Myelitis. Umm, so if you like, they are a memory refresher, but I don't actually remember them.

Kay: Of course.

Doug: Ah, and my earliest memory was walking from a neighbour's place in Palmerston North... umm, home. Ah, and it was... they were about five houses down the road and I was on... I had a caliper, and half crutches... oh, elbow crutches. And a bus went past, 'cause on our street there was a bus route. And I remember people waving, ah to me from the windows as they went past. And that's my earliest memory of polio.

Kay: Ah, so they sort of singled you out because you had the calipers, did they?

Doug: Yeah. I would guess so, yeah.

Kay: So that's when you sort of realised that was something you had

Doug: Yeah, I was a bit different. I was about four.

Kay: Right, yes.

Doug: Just before I went to school.

Kay: So that's really when it became real for you, I suppose?

Doug: Well, I don't know that it was real, 'cause umm, I'd just accepted it for... as part of me. It's who and what I am.

Kay: Yes

Doug: I've never known... I don't remember ever it being different.

Kay: Right, yeah.

Doug: Ah, I've got a photo of me standing, when I was about two, or just before I was two ah, at our home in Whanganui. I don't remember that, so I don't remember ever being able to stand unaided.

Kay: Right. Yeah. So, do you remember your family talking about it or your friends?

Doug: Well, my father died when I was three.

Kay: Oh, I'm sorry.

Doug: I was in Duncan Home.

Kay: Right.

Doug: And so Mum, ah brought up my older sister and me by herself, until she remarried when I was about eight. So, umm... I just went with the flow. I did whatever I was told... ah, sort of. Umm...

[laughter]

05:03

Doug: Umm, Mum took me to school, Mum did this, Mum did that. Took me over to the, ah Whanganui where I had all my surgery, ah and most of my hospital life was in Whanganui. Umm, and sort of between the ages of two and fifteen, approximately half of my life was in Whanganui Hospital.

Kay: Goodness me!

Doug: Ah, in and out, operations... ah, surgery, the umm... rest and recovery... umm, and all of that. And I had nothing to do with it. All I did was just go with the flow, and do whatever I was told.

Kay: Yes.

Doug: Umm, I remember... ah, most of the operations, and ah... the time in, ah Whanganui Public Hospital.

Kay: Right

Doug: Yeah, not pleasant.

Kay: No. So, you do remember some of the treatments you had?

Doug: Yeah.

Kay: Yeah.

Doug: Ah, the treatment was done normally at Duncan Home.

Kay: Right.

Doug: The Duncan Home for Poliomyelitis. With a physiotherapist who was a relative of Sister Kenny.

Kay: Ah, yes!

Doug: Bill Bell.

Kay: Yes, Mr Bell. I've heard of him, yes.

Doug: Brilliant fella.

Kay: Yes.

Doug: Ah, well he was my surrogate father for years, umm, and yeah he did ah, well the physio on my legs, stretching umm, manipulation, all that sort of thing. Yeah, umm, that went on for years.

Kay: Was that really hard as a child, having that?

Doug: Ah, at times it was rather painful. And, ah... Bill Bell was pretty good about trying to distract you...

Kay: Yeah.

Doug: while he was doing this, so that you wouldn't complain about the pain.

Kay: Yes.

Doug: Umm, I was lucky that mum taught me to read before I went to school so that I could, umm, or she could leave me and go up to the shop ah, and do what she had to do without having to worry about me every five minutes. And Bill Bell carried that on. During the treatment he would often give us one of his son's comics, and we would read the comic to him while he was ah, manipulating our legs and limbs and what have you.

Kay: Yeah.

Doug: As painful as it was... yeah.

Kay: Yeah. So did your mum talk to you subsequently in later life about it? Did she share any of her memories of the time?

Doug: Yeah, but umm, I don't remember a lot, and that's why I've got my wife here, because hopefully she'll remember some of Mum's stories.

Kay: Good, 'cause I wanted to ask what it felt like for people to realise that polio was spreading in New Zealand. How did people react to that? Did she talk about that at all?

08:19

Rae: No, not particularly. One of the things, though, that sticks with me, and because, when she told me, my own children were quite young, and that was when Doug got polio. So, I believe now that he got it after he had had measles.

Kay: Oh! Interesting.

Rae: And what she told me was that he became very, very clingy. He wouldn't leave her alone, he was on her hip for about 10 days. So she was beside herself. And initially, as I remember it, she was told no, that's, it's just it's just the measles, don't worry about it.

Kay: Oh!

Rae: But then they became particularly worried, decided it was polio and he went into hospital.

Kay: Right.

Rae: And then she was separated from him for weeks.

Kay: Ah, yes, that was quite common, wasn't it?

Rae: He was in isolation. And of course in those days the sisters and nurses in the children's ward were the bosses, and mothers and fathers had no say in anything. So, this poor woman, after cradling her son for... and becoming beside herself, saying he was in pain for 10 days, just had nothing. And that really pulled at me... my heart strings.

Kay: Yes.

09:45

Rae: And one other thing that she told me, umm, it's... I guess it's... a comment on the social times at that time... and she was a widow. She had two children. Umm, Doug was polio,umm, and physically disabled. She used to absolutely be terrified if somebody came to the door that she didn't know.

Kay: Ah, yes

Rae: Frightened that the State would take her children from her.

Kay: Ah, no!

Rae: Yes.

Kay: Oh, gosh!

Rae: And that resonated with me as well,  particularly in these times.

Kay: Right.

Rae: When you have...

Doug: Dawn Raids

Rae: Well, no, but... yeah, she was just...

Kay: Well, same level of fear, isn't it, yeah.

Rae: Absolutely, same sort of thing. So, yeah, that's... that's something that stays with me. So, it's not particularly about polio but is about being a parent in, well and a solo parent, umm...

Kay: And perhaps the level of authority that the State had because of the epidemic, maybe?

11:03

Rae: Yes. And then on top of that, something else that's... and you may ask the question about this later, I don't know... but something else that she told me was she had to get permission for Doug to go to school. Because he was disabled, umm, he didn't have automatic education.

Kay: Oh, right! I didn't realise that.

Rae: The school had to agree to take him. So because he was a reader before he went to school, the school was actually quite happy to have him. But, umm, yeah because he was disabled, he didn't have automatic right to an education.

Kay: Good heavens. So it wasn't a given? He had to earn his stripes effectively, to get into school.

Rae: Absolutely.

Kay: Goodness me. So, did you have any education at home, Doug, or was it all once you were in school?

Doug: Well, 'cause [...inaudible] You know, teaching me to read... oh, and teaching me to play card games like patience and stuff like that, ah just to keep myself amused. Well, she was doing whatever she had to do.

Kay: Yeah.

12:11

Doug: We were lucky in that the closest shops, a dairy and sort of like a supermarket, were about a 100 yards away. And because the shops were so close, Mum didn't have any worries about leaving me. I mean, she could see our front gate from the shops... umm, and yeah, so she'd go off to the shop and leave me sitting on the floor, umm playing... ah, or reading, what have you. But one thing that just came to mind then was ah, when I first got the polio ah, and was sent home from whichever hospital it was at the time so this would be '52... end of '52, beginning of '53, umm, Mum was told to check if I had any feeling in my leg.

Kay: Right.

Doug: So... in my... ah, by the way, my right leg is completely dead from the hip down.

Kay: Right. Ok.

Doug: I can move my toes, and that's about all I've ever been able to move.

Kay: Right

Doug: So Mum would get me sitting on the floor, and talk to me, and get me to look over there... and do that and this and what have you, and then she'd calmly stick a pin in me!

Kay: Oh, gosh!

Doug: To see whether or not I had any feeling.

Kay: Yeah.

Doug: Any sensation at all in the leg.

Kay: Ow!

Doug: Umm... I have an aversion to needles.

Kay: I'm not surprised!

[laughter]

Doug: The person I most trusted, loved, what have you, in the world was doing this to me!

Kay: Yeah.

Doug: Why? I don't know, umm...

Kay: She thought she was doing the best for you, I'm sure.

Doug: Yeah.

Kay: 'Cause she was nurse, your mum, wasn't she?

Doug: Yeah, during the... end of the war, she was a nurse.

Kay: Yeah.

Doug: Now, I'm guessing that's how she met my father. Umm, he died of Crohn's Disease.

Kay: Oh, goodness, right.

Doug: And... you don't these days.

Kay: No.

Rae: Well, you do sometimes.

14:19

Doug: He got it, it seems, during the War. And I thought he was in the War in Africa, but it seems he was in the War in Europe, in a artillery battalion or something.

Kay: Right.

Doug: And it was his brother who was ah, in Egypt. So yeah, it's, umm... a bit weird.

Kay: Yeah, it would have been a hard life for her, yeah.

So, do you remember growing up with... 'cause you'd already contracted it, but do you remember around you there were precautions that people took to protect themselves?

Doug: Do not remember anything like that at all. I can remember when the ah, the Salk vaccine came out.

Kay: Ah, ok!

15:06

Doug: In '57, umm and in fact they didn't give it to me, because I'd already had polio, so then I had immunity.

Kay: So they assumed you were alright?

Doug: Yeah, but it seems there are different types of polio, and I could have contracted one of the other types.

Kay: Indeed, it's a bit like COVID, isn't it? You can... yeah.

Doug: Yeah.

Kay: So what do you remember the mood being like, when... were you old enough to know what was going on when the Salk vaccine came out? Can you recall what it felt like?

Doug: No.

Kay: I don't mean getting the injection. I mean how people felt when they found out.

Doug: No, 'cause I was 7, umm.

Kay: Yeah, still too young.

Doug: Yeah, I... obviously at school and the rest of the kids were getting it, and umm... but I just don't remember it. And I do remember it when I was at primary school, I was the only one in the school that had polio.

Kay: Ah, so that's interesting. The number of people I've spoken to and there were very few people around them, who... at least they knew about who had polio, yeah. And yet it was so contagious.

Doug: Yeah. Yeah, it seems so. My sister never got it, and... ah, well I was two, so she would have been five... umm, and no, no problems at all.

Kay: Mmm, it's interesting isn't it? 'Cause there are some thoughts with some people I've spoken to, where they've felt that perhaps people had it, but didn't know that they had it.

Doug: Yes, there was a fair bit of that.

Kay: Yeah.

Doug: And sometimes the parents, ah I've heard sort of didn't allow them to know they'd had polio. And didn't accept the fact that they'd had polio. And they just... you know, sort of treated them ah, as normal. Well, as normal as you can do.

Kay: Yeah. And some people didn't... had hardly any symptoms... much like COVID. And some people were very severely affected. So it affected people in lots of different ways, didn't it?

Doug: Just like COVID.

Kay: Yeah, exactly.

Rae: One other thing for you, though, Doug... was that... umm... after you'd been in hospital initially,  if I remember correctly, umm, your parents were told that Palmerston North, 'cause he was in Whanganui initially... that Palmerston North was where the best polio treatments and specialists were. So they moved from Whanganui to Palmerston North.

Kay: Right.

Rae: Only to find out that actually the Duncan Home had gone to Whanganui, and that's where Doug was going to have to go backwards and forwards to, because they couldn't afford to move again.

Kay: Yeah, how frustrating!

Rae: Yeah. But again, that could be one of the reasons why, ah where he went to school, there weren't others. It may not have been... ah a pocket where there was a lot of polio. There may not have been

Kay: Sure. I certainly haven't come across... you know, any large groups at all, but it may be just that... that's how it's happened with the... the people who are still here to talk about it, but also the people I happened to have struck perhaps, yeah.

Doug: Well, I have met one other person who had polio, or got polio, and who lived in the same street in Whanganui as I did.

Kay: Ah, ok.

Rae: But he got it two years earlier.

Doug: Ah, but he got it, ah in the... I got it in '52, so he would have got it... ah, in '50, '49, somewhere like that.

Rae: Yeah.

Doug: Ah, and his family, umm his father was in the railway. And they moved from Whanganui from Victory Crescent in Whanganui to Palmerston North... also not far from where we wound up living.

Kay: Ah, funny!

Doug: And I never... met him, until ah, about four years ago.

Kay: Interesting, ah!

Doug: Yeah, I'd heard of him, but I'd never met him.

Kay: So, he didn't go to the Duncan Hospital?

Doug: No.

Kay: Ah.Okay, yeah. And you were doors away. Amazing, isn't it?

Doug: Incredible, but yeah.

19:32

Kay: So, what are your recollections of the Duncan Home. I've heard good things about the Duncan Home universally.

Doug: [laughs] Well, for me it was my home away from home. Umm, quite often it felt like I was spending sort of, say six months a year there, umm, having physio and and what have you. But I don't think it was every quite that long again. It wasn't... initially in, ah '53 I was there for, umm, I think about six months or so. And I have seen, umm, in some notes that I'd been checking that I wrote 30, 40 years ago that I went home, ah about the time my father died.

Kay: Ah, right.

Doug: But I wasn't in Duncan when he died, but I went back to Duncan when he died. In the New Year. So he died in December... and I went, must have gone back in the January, February. And I spent a few months in Duncan, and then they decided they couldn't do anything more for me then.

Kay: Ah, ok.

Doug: And I went home and then, ah it was sort of... I had six-monthly check-ups, umm see how I was going, if I needed equipment, ah, any surgery needed, any physio, all that sort of stuff. So I'd go back to Duncan ah, I'd have the physio, umm, I was normally... when I was in Duncan I was the first in in the morning, and the first in in the afternoon. And you normally had two sessions a day and you normally had around about 30 minutes.

Kay: Ah, right.

Doug: So, ah... I'd have... be woken at Duncan about quarter past six. They'd strip the beds, remake the beds ah, we'd put dressing gowns on, etcetera, hang around umm, go down for breakfast at seven o'clock and have breakfast, and I was in the bath, and in ah... at Bill Bell's umm, treatment room, eight o'clock in the morning, first of the day. And it was the same after lunch, one o'clock. I'd be in there... ah, for my session. And then the rest of the day, if you weren't having hot packs umm, 'cause that was one of the things, hot packs umm, and they were hot.

Kay: Yes

22:14

Doug: Ah, very hot. And they would... they just boiled up old rags. They were, ah special cotton-type rags. Umm, but they'd just boil them up in these great sterilisers, which wasn't far from the... the room that I was in. And, umm, then they'd come and wrap your leg in it and then put, umm, towels around you tight. And you'd sit there, umm, and you might have the packs changed two or three times in the morning, and once or twice in the afternoon.

Kay: Was that horrible, or was it pleasant?

Doug: Yes, and no, umm... it was... the heat... umm was very, very intensive. Umm... from memory, umm, but it was to relax the muscle 'cause the muscles had all cramped up, and they were all hard and tight. And so by having these hot packs on, it was supposed to make them all go loose and floppy. And... I don't know how well that worked, but umm... ah, yeah we had a lot of it from, until about '57, '58. '59, and then it... then they stopped doing the hot packs ah, and there was, there was just ordinary physio what have you... umm, and what I used to do when I was allowed [clears throat]... in other words school work.

[laughter]

Kay: Oh!

23:43

Doug: Yeah, when we were supposed to be doing correspondence those of us who were stuck on our beds are having treatment and what have you did correspondence. That wasn't particularly wonderful.

Kay: So how did that work? Did you get things in the mail, and...

Doug: Yeah. And... they knew when I was going into Duncan, so they would arrange with the Correspondence School to send me stuff, so I could carry on with schoolwork.  Except, I'd get to Duncan, and I could be there for a month or more before the stuff finally arrived.

Kay: Oh, no!

Doug: And it kept arriving after I'd left.

Kay: Ah, dear, so you missed quite a bit of school then?

Doug: Well, yeah, umm... I Yeah, I think I did. I don't think I missed it, but... yes, I...

Kay: It didn't matter. [laughter]

Doug: No, not really.

Kay: Yeah.

Doug: About the only thing that I didn't do well at at school was, ah, maths.

Kay: Yep.

Doug: I didn't quite get School C maths. Ah, but I got School Cert, ah went into the sixth form. And didn't do anything that year, and decided it was time to leave. Umm... so yeah. But the... the correspondence was a pain. They did have a schoolroom there. Well, sort of, they had a room put aside for kids to go and do their correspondence, in.

Kay: Mmm, did they have an on-site teacher, or someone to help you?

Doug: One of the nurses, or nurse aids, or whatever they called them used to do it. At one stage, it started off, it was one of the the, umm, the patients had been a teacher.

Kay: Ah, handy!

Doug: So she took over that role for, oh a number of years before she died. And umm, and then one of the nurses or nurse aids took over. And she was there, ooh for a good five to ten years. And then she went umm, I'm not sure what happened there, but umm, another one of the, the people that I've just met again recently ah, as a patient, she was a patient ah, and also did teaching, took over and took the little kids.

Kay: Ah, yeah. So everybody helped each other, really?

Doug: Yeah, in a way.

26:18

Rae: I thought I'd butt in again here.

Doug: Yeah, you go in. Come in, you're sort of butting in!

[laughter]

Rae: Umm, again... listening to Doug's mum, and listening to Doug talk about, umm, the Duncan Home and what have you, and some of the escapades they got up to as kids. So, I mean they were little monkeys.

Kay: Well, you can imagine they must have been really bored though, you can forgive them that!

Rae: But some of them... but the feeling I get is that the, ah well Nurse Wilson was... was...

26:50

Doug: Sister Wilson.

Rae: Sister Wilson was, umm, was the Matron if you like, and then there was the cook and the housekeeper, and they and Mr Bell, they all wanted these children to have a childhood.

Kay: Yes.

Rae: So they let them get away with a bit. They always knew where the kids were. Well, almost always knew where the kids were! [laughter] But they let them get away with, with quite a bit, so that they could be kids. Umm, yeah, I... I didn't come onto the scene for... a long, long time of course.

Doug: Mmm.

Rae: But I've got a really soft spot for those professionals that... that looked after these children.

Kay: Yes, they tried to make it a home from home, I gather?

Rae: Yeah, that's... that's the feel that I got, yeah.

Kay: Yeah.

Rae: And yes, they were able to get into mischief They were able to test themselves out a little bit.

Kay: To be children, mmm.

Rae: Yes, to be children.

Kay: Yeah, and to to be themselves and not be all about polio, yeah.

Rae: That's right.

Kay: Yeah, yeah. Good on 'em.

Doug: Some of the things we did, umm, was at night, after lights out, we would often put on our socks...

28:06

Doug: Most of us had long woollen socks... now, most of us felt the cold in some way, so we'd put on long woollen socks, dressing gowns, pyjamas, you know what have you, and then, we would get down on the floor and slide around the hospital at night, the Duncan Home at night.

Kay: Yeah. [laughter]

Doug: Going out to the kitchen and see the night nurse... umm, do things like that, ah...  One of the, umm, the guys, ah who is sort of went in about the same time as I did, umm, he's since died, but umm... (signs) we went, ah down to the aw, so would have been about '63... went down to the reception area room ah, where there was a TV.  And we snuck in there one night, ah and behind the couches to watch TV.

[laughter]

And so we stayed there until about 11 o'clock at night. Don't remember  what was on, but it was boring as anything.

Kay: Yeah.

Doug: But we were... we were watching TV! And there was only one adult who'd come into the room the whole night we were there. And they hadn't stayed long, and gone.

Kay: Yeah.

Doug: The nurses never found out that we weren't in our beds.

[laughter]

Kay: I bet they knew really.

Doug: That was the sort of thing we did. I used to go for walks during the day umm, 'cause the property was quite large.

Kay: Yes.

Doug: Ah, and... ah, I... and there was an orchard out the back and a kinda... ah, garden and what have you.

Kay: Yeah.

Doug: And a big iron fence, about 10 foot high, it seemed, umm, right across the back. But there is a gate in it.

Kay: Ah, ok.

Doug: And sometimes the gate was left open.

Kay: Yeah.

Doug: So sometimes someone went through!

[laughter]

Kay: The gate was open. [laughter]

Doug: I wasn't told I wasn't allowed to. [laughter]

Kay: Yeah.

Doug: That I remember. Umm, and out the back there was like a... it was like a paddock, and was on the side of a hill ah, and a deep, steep gully. Ah, and there were pine trees and macrocarpas. And this is on the top of Durie Hill in Whanganui. Right where the memorial tower is. And a lot of the local kids used to make huts in the the umm, the pine trees and the macrocarpas.

Kay: Yeah.

Doug: For wargames and what have you. Well, I went out there a couple of times and I was just accepted as one of the kids.

Kay: Good, yeah.

Doug: You know, ah snuck out there, and snuck back in.

[laughter]

Doug: Great fun.

Kay: Yeah, good. Again, you could be kids, yeah.

Doug: Yeah, being normal, umm...

Kay: Yeah. Did you make some firm friends while you were at the Duncan Hospital?

Doug: Ah, let's say that I still talk to them.

[laughter]

Kay: Oh, ok.

Rae: But he didn't know any of them for a long time.

Doug: Yeah, well there was a big gap, ah between... well, my last year at Duncan was '65, '66, umm, and then I went back for a reunion about '79 I think it was.

Rae: Yeah.

Kay: yeah.

Doug: Yeah, so I met a few of them then at the reunion. Ah, and then the next time was in the late '80s, early '90s.

Kay: Right.

Dough: And then about five years ago I went to a conference in Rotorua umm, and met a few.

Kay: Yeah.

Doug: Yeah, ah... well, for some it was like... I'd seen them yesterday.

Kay: Yeah... yeah.

Doug: Umm, ah Nancy for one, umm.

Kay: Yes.

Doug: You've probaby talked to Nancy.

Kay: I have spoken to Nancy. Yes, she's lovely, yes.

Doug: Yeah, well she is two years younger than me, and... came in after I was in Duncan.

Kay: Right.

Doug: Apart from that, we were often during the same times. And there were times when our surgeries were similar. She went, ah in sometimes before me, sometimes it was after me. And if I was going down to surgery and Nancy was in there, I would go into the next ward the Simpson Ward, that was the women's ward, and the Reid Ward was the men's ward. And there was a veranda between the two wards and they often left me on the veranda, umm... the beds, you know... it was all... as a like a ward. And I would be able to go through into the women's ward... go and visit Nancy... with a wheelchair ah, or if I hadn't had my surgery, ah by that stage I'd just walk in on my crutches. But yeah, we... we spent a lot of time talking. And... yeah, she still talks to me!

Kay: So that's not a bad thing, is it? You can't be all bad.

[laughter]

Doug: Yeah, you've got it, yeah, it can't be!

[laughter]

Doug: But yeah... ah, some of the nurses there even that I met at the conference three or four years ago remembered me... you know, 30 and 40 years prior.

Kay: Yeah.

Doug: And I'm... who the hell are you? [laughs]

Kay: Ah, you made a mark!

[laughter]

Doug: Ah, it must be my winning personality, yeah.

33:48

Kay: Of course, yeah! So you've had treatment ongoing throughout your life, have you?

Doug: No.

Kay: Ah, right, ok.

Doug: Ah, when I stopped going to Duncan I stopped having treatment.

Kay: Right, ok.

Doug: Yes, I have had, ah physio for different things since then, and ah... one of the things is, ah I used to wear a full-length caliper.

Kay: Right.

Doug: And... ah, I wore it when we got married, didn't I, yeah?

Rae: You did.

Doug: So that was... I was still wearing it in '74, ah when we got married. And I wore it a few times after that. But it broke. Umm... I was good at breaking things.

Kay: Ah, ok.

[laughter]

Doug: Umm, and I never really got it repaired to where I wanted to use it to walk again.

Kay: Right, yeah.

Doug: So, I stopped wearing a caliper around... aww, mid-'70s until, umm... aww, it was the mid-'80s. It was '84. I worked for, umm, New Zealand Disability Resource Centre in Palmerston North for about ten months, umm... and they came up with, ah they got a guy over from Australia to make the first lightweight plastic caliper in New Zealand.

Kay: Ah, right!

Doug: And I was the guinea pig.

Kay: Fantastic, was it good?

Doug: Umm, I broke it! [laughter]

Kay: Ah, no!

Doug: It lasted a few hours and I broke it.

[laughter]

Kay: Well, it was a good user test, wasn't it?

Doug: It was. Umm... there was an engineer, a young engineer at the Disabilities Resource Centre at the time and he was doing, umm the elbow crutches umm, trying to ah, do a locking device to make them extendable and adjustable and all that.

Kay: Yeah.

Doug: So he got me to trial them. And I broke 'em! [laughter]

Kay: Oh, dear!

Doug: But it was good because he then could see what he had to do to make it work for others.

Kay: Yeah.

Doug: Now, this is building up to something, because... I used to have a lot of, umm, equipment failures. And I'd learned generally how to fall without hurting myself.

Kay: Ah, right.

Doug: You can't tell from this little picture you can see, but I was about five foot 11, and around 13, 14 stone in most of the time during the '70s. Umm, and... and not a little fella. When I fell, ah I normally didn't hurt myself... then.

Kay: Ah, okay.

Doug: Ah, I'd break a crutch, and I'd go splat, but I'd roll or somehow break my fall, wouldn't hurt. I'd be fine. The crutch was broken, but ah no problem with me. So that was why I helped out with the... the design of some of this stuff, umm...

Kay: You were the stunt man, effectively. [laughter]

Doug: Exactly, yes. I didn't get hurt. In the early 2000's I got ah, picked up and blown across the road by the wind here in Porirua.

Kay: Good grief! Wow!

Doug: It was, ah something like 100k winds. Ah, and I was delivery a PC. I was a PC repairer in those days. Delivering a PC to a fella, got out of the car, stood beside the car, got picked up and wound up in the middle of the road, with the crutch jammed under my arm. Ruined my rotator cuff. Yeah. And then a few years later... it's all Rae's fault... I tripped and fell on the carpet in the lounge and did my left rotator cuff. So now I can't go up steps I... I walk maybe 20, 30 steps maximum. Umm... and some of the physios who've seen me are still amazed that I can still walk on axhillary crutches. That's full underarm crutches. Umm, but... I... it must be... just, ah but I... I... just sort of got used to using crutches, full-length crutches, since I was about 8 or 9. When I got home from school, I'd take my caliper off use crutches. It was easier to get around.

38:35

Kay: Yeah. And I imagine the calipers were really uncomfortable, were they?

Doug: Yeah, well they weighed about 5k.

Kay: Ah, gosh, yeah.

Doug: Ah, with your boots and... and everything else. And on a leg that had no muscle, ah, it was a fair drain. Ah, especially on energy. Umm, I... as a kid, where we lived in Palmerston North, there was a big horseshoe-shaped paddock out the back of us, well it was a... ah, an unsurfaced street that was just grass. And we used to... all the kids in the neighbourhood would get out there and play. Ah, rugby, cricket, soccer... you name it, we... we played it out there. In fact we played tennis on the road... umm, 'cause there was so little traffic then, you could. Umm, I played badminton in the back yard where, ah we had a big concrete pad. I did stupid things like climb shed roofs to get the badminton shuttlecock of the, ah... off the roof. And then sort of just drop off the roof, you know, wearing a caliper. Umm...

Kay: Gosh! [laughter]

Rae: Yeah, typical.

Kay: You weren't shy, were you? About trying to hurt yourself. [laughter]

Doug: No, didn't think about it, you know. Typical young male. I was... I was always into everything as a kid. Umm... and yeah, I... I didn't like being told I wasn't allowed to. Umm... even at school, when I wasn't allowed to do any of the ah, games or play the games, athletics, what have you. And they got this brand new gymnasium at Freyberg High School, when I was going there, and... the changing rooms were in the, ah gym, so... we'd all go down to the gym to get changed. Well, I was supposed to be sitting up on the... ah, on the seats on the side and the guys would be playing around with the ball, shooting baskets and what have you. And because the teacher wasn't around, guess who else was down there?

[laughter]

Guess who went for a slip one day with his caliper on... and this highly polished floor had a gouge about three foot long.

Kay: Oh, whoops! Did they guess it was you?

[laughter]

Doug: They could never prove it, 'cause nobody would say. They was all "look what we've found!"

Kay: You know we're recording this, right?

[laughter]

Doug: Yeah, but that's ok. I mean, there's no-one around now, is there? I mean, this was 50 years ago. [laughter] 55 years ago. So, umm, yeah... chances are that no-one is still around. Well, some of my classmates would probably remember. But... but I haven't seen most of them since I left school.

41:37

Umm... no, left school, went to work and yeah, I went to work... I came to Wellington to work, ah... So, left everyone behind in Palmerston North and I was good.

Kay: Yeah. So, you sound like you've lived life to the full, yeah. You haven't let this hold you back at all.

Doug: No, I... I've tried, ah to do most things. Ah, I've umm... I packed a sad, ah... ah, with umm, the Government at one stage here. 1971. I... well Social Welfare, or whatever it was called in those days. I was having problems, ah transport-wise. Off and on buses isn't easy.

Kay: No.

Doug: And... I was hoping I could get a loan to buy a car. And all they would loan me was money to buy a mini. And the mini was absolutely totally useless! I couldn't ... the damn thing. So, so I packed a sad, and... I, I told Mum I'm going to Australia. And I ah, went through the proper channels at work and got leave without pay, a year's leave without pay. Packed it all up, ah left work, left the flat. Ah, 'cause I was flatting in Wellington at that stage. Ah, went home to Palmerston North for a couple of weeks, and ah, one of my mates... ah, who was still living in Palmy and had decided he was gonna come with us, ah him and I got on the train one night, up to Auckland, and the next night we were on the boat to Sydney. And we bought a car in Sydney. We stayed in Sydney for about three weeks. And bought a car, ah between the two of us. And umm we then drove to Perth.

Kay: Wow! That's quite a journey!

Doug: Took us a week.

Kay: Goodness me!

Doug: Sometimes we were on the road 24 hours a day. And it's about 3000-odd miles, from memory. But it was... it was a great trip. And there were actually three of us that made it. Ah, one of the guys... ah, who was in the flat... ah, next door to us in Wellington... ah, he'd come over on the boat as well. Ah, and so there were three of us that went to Perth and tried to work, umm...  Both of them got sort of temporary labouring jobs, but nobody would employ me! So I was on the dole for... well, going on six months. I ran out of money, umm... and decided to come home. So, wrote a letter to the umm, a Government department I'd been working for. And I said can I come home early? [laughs] Basically. And I went home, ah Queen's Birthday weekend. Ah, and ah... I went back into the old flat that I was with, and umm... ah, the... my flatmate at the time worked for Government as well. He worked for Customs. So he met me at the airport when I came back with a ton of money expecting me to bring back all sorts of things he would help me to pay duty on. And I came home broke. I think I had $10. And that was all the money I had left in the world. So I... he moved me back into the flat and the next week, ah after Queen's Birthday I, umm... sort of rang into work ah, I think I went into work... and I said you know, is it alright if I start next week? He said "you could've started today!" He was quite happy to have me back and so that was good. So, umm... yeah, I stayed there for about another 10, 12 years.

Kay: But you'd had your OE. [laughter]

Doug: My OE, yeah.

Kay: What a road trip!

Doug: It was. It was quite interesting. Parts of it.

[laughter]

Kay: Yeah. The bits you can talk about.

Doug: Yeah, well those are... Yeah, 'cause my wife's right here!

Kay: Yeah, what stays on the roadie, stays on the roadie.

[laughter]

Doug: Exactly.

46:08

Kay: So, getting back to polio, a lot of people have talked about post-polio. Is that something that's affected you?

Doug: Yeah. Ah, severe muscle weakness, but that's also because of the damage I've done to the rotator cuffs. Ah, and that's exacerbated by post-polio, or vice-versa. I... I have problems these days. Some days, with my left arm I can't even lift a... a cup, you know, to drink. But ah, that's life.

Kay: Yeah. Was it something you were made aware of by the medical profession? Did you know it was coming?

Doug: No!

Rae: No, no. We went to a conference in Taradale about... oooh...

Doug: 1990.

Rae: Was it that long ago? It couldn't have been 1990, 'cause we were in Feilding.

Doug: Ok, so it was... late '80's yeah.

Rae: Yeah, late '80's it was. And umm, that's when post-polio first came into our vocabulary. But we just... we... we were pretty sure Doug didn't have it at that stage, yeah. So... so that was... yeah, so we knew about it. Umm, like any bloke he didn't go to the doctor very often, and he wasn't really involved with the medical profession at all, like, you know... so there was nothing that got him to go to the doctor. And by the time he was having problems the... the medical profession actually... most of them, many of them didn't have a clue about post-polio. And we had heard about it. We had started doing some research about it. Ah, and Dr Liz Faulkner was around, 'cause it was her that spoke about it at the... at the conference. And um... so we, we had done a little bit of research. But the doctors that we had at the time really didn't see it as being an issue, umm... "No, that won't be it, it'll be everything else." But of course by that stage Doug was getting a bit older as well.

Kay: Yeah, it's often confused with growing older, isn't it, yeah.

Rae: And it got put down to that. And I think that was one of the things that was most frustrating to Doug was that... the symptoms he was having ... eventually... umm... were more than aging. Weren't the same as ageing, but the doctors he was seeing just didn't... didn't cotton on to that at all. And what they did want him... of him... didn't do any good... didn't help in any way. Umm, so the frustration with medical people became quite... quite real. Ah... when he did his rotator cuff... I think it was the first one we did go and see a surgeon... umm, who said to him "look, I... I could have a go at fixing it. I'm not confident that I can fix it." Because it had been quite a long time before Doug had actually, umm, gone in about this so... ah, he said "and if I do... you're going to be flat on your back for at least six months." And he said "I don't think that... that's possible for you." And it wouldn't have been. He just... he just couldn't have done that. So... [sighs] The polio interfered with some things. Umm... whenever it was noticed but not in the way of, ok how can we make this better? Or what... what do we need... the medical people what do we need to know. So there... there was very little understanding and that was very, very frustrating. And we're at a stage now, where it's even more frustrating, because Doug is older so, he is, umm... he... in his lifestyle he has, ah the types of conditions that lead to, ah doctors wanting to give him medications that can also make his muscles weaker. Things like statins... magic medication for things like stroke and heart attack and all of those sorts of things so, doctors are wanting him to take statins and he's saying "I don't wanna, 'cause it actually means that all the other things that... that I can't do become even more hard for me... and I become more of a cripple when I've never been one." [chuckles] Which is funny to say, but Doug was never seen as... as disabled. And he had a friend... who was an absolute laugh, and an absolute love. And I can remember one time she... she suggested that Doug did something, and then... and Doug sort of looked at her and said, "Ah, Barbara..." And she... she suddenly realised he couldn't do that. Bit like a friend of mine of who was deaf, who ah, we were talking at work one time, and she said "well, I need to do this." I said why don't you ring them.

Kay: Yeah. You forget, don't you? Yeah.

Rae: Yeah. Umm... 'Cause actually, because he did so much... he dug gardens, he painted... ceilings, he... you know, he did all of those things. But couldn't change nappies.

Kay: [laughs] Funny that, isn't it? That seems to be impossible. Can't do that bit.

Doug: That's worman's work!

[laughter]

Rae: He couldn't do that. But... he did all sorts. Now... things are catching up with him. And things are frustrating and... he does... can't work out a way of getting to do what he would like to do, which is what he's ...

Kay: Yeah. So it seems the medical profession is almost learning as it's going along. Quite a lot of unknowns with polio, isn't there?

Rae: Yeah, I think, you know...

Doug: Yeah, and a lot of information was thrown out with the bathwater.

Kay: That could have been useful?

53:49

Doug: Yeah, way back in the early '80s ah, the Whanganui Hospital, for example, threw out all its records, umm, 'cause they were going to computerisation. And, if the record hadn't ah, checked, accessed, in a couple of years or x number of years, they threw it out. And all that history... of the all the Duncan people that had been through there got tossed.

Rae: But... but that happens ah, in lots of hospitals.

Doug: True.

Rae: That was the times.

Kay: Yeah. But they just weren't prepared, were they, for post-polio? It just wan't a thing.

Rae: No. And we need to remember, too, that in countries with bigger populations, polio has been studied, and has been noted over the years. And they are now working out some of the... the things that... that indicate or at least relate to the effects of polio, rather than post-polio. 'Cause they're quite... slightly different. Well, late effects of polio, particularly for Doug are getting older, and having polio and finding that the things that he... the workarounds that he's been able to do for years, he can no longer do.

Kay: It's like old age, but... but much worse, I suppose, yeah. Yeah.

Rae: And particularly frustrating.

Kay: Yes, I bet it is.

Doug: It has it's moments.

[laughs]

55:15

Kay: Yeah. I'm interested in comparing how the effect of polio on us, on New Zealand, compares with the effect of COVID. Do you think there are any lessons that we could have learned from polio, that might have stood us in good stead? What are your thoughts or how do you think the two compare?

Doug: I think we're gonna find out. [coughs] Ah, excuse me. [sighs] Son is 48... and he's not a little person either, and he had COVID last year. Now he thinks, or they think he's got long COVID. Ah, he tires a lot easier than he used to. He is still running around playing rugby, rugby 10's ... ah, in, where was it?

Rae: Cambodia.

Doug: Cambodia. And he you know he... he's not a young fella any more! Ah, now he's finding that... he's tiring so easily that he... he just won't be able to do it again. Ah, and... yeah... it... he's gonna... well, we're gonna find out from him if you like, ah what COVID... long COVID is likely to be. But I... I think it's not gonna be good for a lot of people. There will be a few, ah who won't have any symptoms. Ah, and they'll be fine. And then there'll others that... yeah, fall apart.

Rae: And then... in a... in years to come, those that had no symptoms may end up like you guys with late-effect polio. The doctors are going "ah, no... no, it can't be that".

Kay: Yeah. It's just old age, yeah.

Rae: Just old age.

Kay: Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it?

Rae: It... it was really interesting in the early days of COVID... lockdowns and what have you, and... I've been interested, I guess because of Doug, and knowing that Doug had polio, and hearing about the schools being closed down when... when there were polio epidemics and what have you... often for months and months of time, I understand. And then hearing the absolute... umm... what's the word? ... Huge concerns that people have of the effect of the lockdowns that we've had for our children this time 'round. And I'm thinking it would be really interesting for people to look at the cohorts of people that went through polio epidemics, that were locked down and how that has affected, umm... the economy, as far as children going into the workforce is concerned. What sort of... looking back into those years, what sort of statistics can we look at that show how the economy worked... how it affected children going through school, university, into... into jobs... so that we can talk to the youngsters that are getting themselves into states now, about being so concerned whether or not they will get left behind. The big picture, actually, it's not a big issue. They can still do the things that they will want to do. The world will accommodate... the things that they've missed out on and they'll be able to... to accumulate those things in a different way.

Kay: That's right. You'll adapt.

Rae: Yeah. The world does that, funnily enough. [laughs]

Doug: Yeah. I don't think I missed out on, ah... [sighs] schooling, ah... if I did, it was because of me... ah, being lazy.

[laughter]

Rae: But the kids that were kept out of school for three months or whole terms...

Doug: Yeah, but look at me in hospital, when I didn't even have... the correspondence.

Rae: This is true, yeah... yeah.

Doug: When it arrived late.

Rae: Because that was the other thing. The kids didn't have correspondence. Or if they did, quite often it wasn't enforced at home... And yes there are a lot of children... sorry there are old people now that I talk to, that remember just having the long holidays. Missed school... and just the freedom of it.

Kay: Mmm, to be kids.

Rae: To be kids.

Kay: To do what you did, Doug. Yeah. Not detrimental to be kids, is it?

Rae: Yep, and so... Not that simple. So... I do... while I understand teachers, and... and... policy makers, and all the rest of it getting upset about all of this, in the big picture as long as the children are kept safe, and interested in learning... ah, however, and you can pick that up later as well as long as they're... they're looked after as they continue their schooling there should not be any big, long lasting issues for them.

Kay: No, you're right. So much to learn from the past, isn't there?

Rae: There is.

Kay: And that's what prompted this particular project for me. I wanted to just ... I kept hearing this word 'unprecedented', and I kept thinking it's not though, is it? It's not unprecedented, it's happened before. And people have come through it, and life did go on. there is an end to it. Not quite an end for post-polio of course, 'cause it carries on, but there's a life after that. It doesn't mean life stops because you've had polio, or COVID.

Doug: That's right.

Kay: You just adapt and become... live your life a different way, don't you?

Rae: And like... COVID... there were people that died. There were people that went into hospital and their families never saw them again. And there were young children whose siblings went into hospital and weren't told, because that was the time they weren't told what, or where they'd gone to. Their sibling came home and was disabled. Children make up stories as to why that might have happened. We've heard of some stories that... that... we're talking that children have thought about... and talking to one person who had polio and when, as adults... ah, she was talking to her brother, who explained to her what it was like for him that she had disappeared. Umm, and he thought it was all his fault. And those sort of things that he carried. And I can imagine that might be something that children might carry. Say, if they get COVID, family gets COVID, somebody gets exceptionally ill, and dies... and, 'cause chldren add two and two together and come to ten.

Kay: And they often... they often take the guilt upon themselves, don't they?

Rae: And they don't normally talk about it.

Kay: No. And you hear so many times, "ah it's the kids at school that are spreading this", and you think perhaps you shouldn't be saying that within their earshot.

Rae: Well, it's not the kids that are... at fault.

Kay: It's not their fault is it? It's nobody's fault.

Rae: And it's the same for the children that went... in Christchurch that went through the earthquakes, taking a lot of that on themselves. You know, it affected their families terribly. They could have been having a bit of a paddy at the time the earthquake happened, and a three or four year old, five year old that...you know, maybe it had something to do with them.

Kay: Yeah, I was being a naughty boy and that's what happened, yeah.

Rae: Children do those sorts of things. So I, my personal view is that we need to be quite sensitive to those sorts of things. And to look after that sort of...

Kay: Yeah, it's the pastoral care more than... the education will come.

Rae: That's right, yeah.

Kay: It might take longer. It might... be fine. But it's what you do to people's minds when they're young that often has repurcussions, isn't it?

Doug: And it's a lot easier these days to learn, than it was back in the '50s.

Kay: That's right. Yeah, well you just turn on the computer for a start. And you can talk to someone like we're talking now, yeah.

Rae: Having said that, those middle adults that have children at school, that they're having to home school during lockdowns. The expectations that they can continue to work at home, the families... during a time when they can't do what they normally would do those sorts of things, I think they're marvellous. I think they're absolutely fantastic people... for doing all of that and staying sane. There'll be times when they don't feel particularly sane, and we need the... the human wherewithall... to be able to support them as well.

Kay: Mmm, that's right. That's the key word, isn't it. It's support. It's people supporting each other, so you don't feel alone in this, yeah.

Rae: No.

Doug: Yeah.

Kay: Well, I've come to the end of my questions, but I really appreciate you taking part in this. I hope, in the future, that people will be able to look at the archive and learn from it, whether they be schoolchildren or researchers. Or just people interested in the subject. And that's a valuable contribution you've made, so I really, really appreciate that, thank you so much.

Doug: No problem.

Kay: It's also the value of hearing a voice. It makes such a connection for people. So you might find, you know, your relatives might listen in in the future. And just think, ah isn't it wonderful to hear Doug and Rae talking. You know, it doesn't matter what you're talking about, but just to hear your voices. It's a real... takes you right back, yeah.

Rae: That's very true. Very true.

Kay: Yep. So, thank you so much for taking part. This is great.

Doug: I've enjoyed it, Kay.

Kay: Good! It's been lovely talking to you both. Have a wonderful day, and I hope you enjoy the recording when we put it up.

Doug: I will, thank you.

Kay: Thank you so much. All the best to you.

Doug: Ok, bye.

Kay: Bye, bye.

[Recording ends]