Transcript of interview with Lorraine Skevington

A transcript of an interview, recorded as part of the Dunedin Public Libraries' oral history project on the effects on the Dunedin community of poliomyelitis outbreaks in the 1940s and 1950s. Interviewee is Mrs Lorraine Skevington, who contracted polio at the age of nine. Lorraine recalls vividly how she felt and what went on around her when she was struck with the disease. She recalls her treatment in hospital and subsequently at home with a private Kenny-trained nurse, as well as her deteriorating health in later years as Post-polio took hold. Lorraine theorises that the Kenny method of physiotherapy may have been the cause of Post-polio, and compares polio with COVID-19.
 

Recording identification

This is an interview with Mrs Lorraine Skevington on Wednesday 27th July 2022. The interview is for the Dunedin Public Libraries He Purapura Marama Scattered Seeds Digital Archive Polio Oral History Project. The interviewer is Kay Mercer. The interview was recorded via Zoom and then converted to audio subsequently.

ABSTRACT

00:00    Introduction and recording permission

02:38    Lorraine explains how her mother would take her to all her treatments, and recalls her         father filming her trying to ski with great difficulty due to polio

04:01    Lorraine talks about her early life

06:01    Lorraine recalls how she contracted polio after a school party

13:11    Lorraine remembers the doctor saying the hospitals were overcrowded, so initially Lorraine            was nursed at home, until she became very ill a few days later and was sent to Christchurch      Hospital

15:21    Lorraine recalls having a painful lumbar puncture and having to be held down by three        nurses; being left on a hospital bed in the corridor because there was no room on the wards            due to the high numbers of polio patients - so her mum could come and see her often as it   wasn't possible to isolate her. She was unable to have an iron lung as they were all in use

16:51    Lorraine explains how she became more paralysed and her mother had to feed her. As there             was still no room at the hospital, her mother took her home and hired a private, Kenny-          trained nurse, who treated her with hot packs and massage

20:01    Later in life Lorraine starts to have symptoms of Post-polio, starting with her elbows, which required surgery - no-one including Lorraine realised this was linked to polio

22:21    By the 1980's Lorraines knees were unstable and she experienced lots of falls - began to     realise this was a late-effect of her childhood polio

23:33    Lorraine recounts how hip replacement surgery revealed that her hip bones were the size of           a 10-year-olds; Lorraine's feet also hadn't grown since she was 10 years old

26:17    Lorraine describes the difficulty with obtaining orthotic shoes she needs to walk

31:58    Using a wheelchair to get about the house; no longer being able to drive as too weak to       operate the brake

32:38    Lorraine considers that she is one of the few polios of her age group alive - one of the few        old enough to have memories of contracting polio

33:28    Lorraine remembers being unable to take part in sports at school, but does recall gym club              where she was able to participate for a time and learned to fall without hurting herself,               which has been very valuable for her in later life with her many falls from polio

37:09    Lorraine expresses regret at her limited mobility and reducing quality of life due to       polio/Post-polio

38:49    Lorraine's experience of the Christchurch earthquake - lucky to retain power - her family             visited often

40:49    Lorraine recalls again how well her mother cared for her when she contracted polio

44:29    Lorraine's theory and anecdotal evidence that the Kenny method of massage and exercise              may have done more harm than good - using up motorneurones that should have been stored for later life - causing Post-polio

54:29    Lorraine compares Post-polio with long-COVID

_________________________________________________________________________________

00:00

Kay: Before we go, though, there's just a formality I have to just...

Lorraine: Ah, sorry.

Kay: a very short thing. So, I'll just let you know, right from the off, I'm recording this now. Are you happy with that?

Lorraine: Yes, I saw that.

Kay: Grand, ok. I can take out anything you don't want me to include, and I can send you the recording afterwards if you want to hear it before it goes onto the archive.

Lorraine: Look... I don't use that bad a language, and there's absolutely nothing [laughter] ... there's nothing there that, ah, I'm going to want to remove, if you know what I mean.

Kay: Ok. So you're happy with that?

Lorraine: Yes.

Kay: So there's a formality. I just have to read this... because it's an oral history recording... so we comply with the, umm, they're not regulations as such, they're kind of guidelines of NOHANZ, which is the sort of national oral history body, that looks after how oral histories are recorded and preserved - so those sort of outlines. And one of those is to, obviously to send you the recording agreement, which we've done, and you've sent it back to me, thank you very much. But we also have to put on the recording the fact that, you're fully happy to go ahead. So, if I just read this to you, and then you can say yes or no. Sorry it's another formality but it's just to make sure we're not abusing our position by recording you when you don't want to be, basically. So, before we go any further I want to confirm that you understand that this material is being recorded for archival purposes primarily for the Dunedin Public Libraries' He Purapura Marara Scattered Seeds Digital Archive Polio Project. The recording will be held in He Purapura Marara Scattered Seeds Digital Archive and the address of that is www.dunedin.recollect.co.nz. And I'm going to call that 'the Archive' 'cause that's really long. A copy of the recording may be held on repository in digital form. That just means the file will be in our file before it goes on to the Archive... by Dunedin Public Libraries. Material held in the archive, which is the online file is freely accessible by the general public, and that's really important that you understand that.

Lorraine: Yes.

Kay: As specified in the written recording agreement that we've provided for you to sign and which you have kindly returned to us signed. Are you happy with that, Lorraine, and are you willing to continue with the recording?

02:38

Lorraine: Absolutely. Yes.

Now, after I had polio, every year I used to have about three months of heavy treatment, massaging and various things, and my mother used to drive me backwards and forwards. And every month, after my treatment... my parent, they weren't wealthy, but I mean they weren't... they had a little business and they... they weren't on their uppers, you  know what I mean?

Kay: Yeah.

Lorraine: And every year we used to go, well he had the latest Jaguar, so I mean that tells you something in 1957! And he used to make these movies when we went away. Well, I say this year... that year we went to the Hermitage and because he was in the movie club, and he had a camera, he was just... he was making a film to go to win the cup for the best movie of the year... which it did win, which was why I... Which is why, as he said, nobody else burnt down the hotel to finish their holiday, did they?

[laughter]

Kay: That is a bit extreme.

[laughter]

Lorraine: And, ah... so, I mean, he stopped and took some of the road and various things going there. And the day before he took some shots on the, ah glacier, and it showed me struggling. Of course, nobody realised that was why I was so bad and so wee. But there is a few shots of me and the family umm, trying to ski, and me falling over and not coping.

04:01

Kay: Ok, so back to polio. So, I'm just going to leave you to talk, Lorraine, because you've got a nice presentation ready.

Lorraine: Ok.

Kay: So, you fire away, and you're ok for me to dip in with any questions?

Lorraine: Look, dip in any time you like. Excuse me a minute. [Lorraine coughs] I have got a slightly paralysed... I'm sorry [coughs], I... I've got a paralysed epiglotis, and I do have this problem...

Kay: Ah, awful. Yeah.

Lorraine: All from polio.

Kay: There's a lot of complications, isn't there?

Lorraine: It is. Now, I was born in 1942, during World War Two. My father was in the Air Force when I was born, and he was on duty in the Pacific Islands when I was born, so he wasn't actually present in New Zealand. He was on duty there. Now, I was three years old when the War finished and he came home. Now, while he was away my mother of course was like a solo mother. And her father, my grandfather, he used to come over every day to keep her company, and see if she wanted the garden dug, and... And I bonded 100 percent with Papa, my grandfather, Mum's father. And I mean, ah... so when the War finished, Dad came home, and we never bonded. We never got on.

Kay: Oh!

Lorraine: I was always Mum's girl. Now, after I was born, actually Mum had a... well she had a little boy. I don't remember him, he was two years younger than me. But he never came out of hospital, because he had spina bifida and died at six months.

Kay: Ah, oh I'm sorry.

Lorraine: Then after that she had four miscarriages.

Kay: Goodness.

06:01

Lorraine: And also, the one that died was the boy, and I was a girl, and my father only ever wanted a boy, so you can imagine the... sort of a bit of family... sort of... well, when I was 10 years old, they adopted a little boy, David.

Now, in 1952 I was at West Spreydon School in Christchurch, and I was left... that was when the intermediate schools just started. So at 10 years old, I left West Spreydon School to go to intermediate the next year. Now, all the children leaving school to go to intermediate, plus any other children leaving the school, had what they called a leaving party, put on by the parents and the committee, and various people. Now, there were four... sorry [coughs] there were three standard fours. There was a straight standard four for the brighter children, which I was in. There was a combined standard three standard four. And there was also at West Spreydon School... in those days they had what they called a model school, which trainee teachers went and taught. It was run like a complete country school, umm, like the... they had their own playground. While they were in the school grounds they did not mix with the other children. And there were three children in each form. So, it was... It was called... it was a complete model school. One of the children in the model school lived the next street from us, Valerie Thompson, and I knew her quite well. But I had not seen her for at least six weeks beforehand. Now, at the party, it was a typical party of those days, there was, ah pikelets with... pikelets with jam, fairy bread with hundreds and thousands on, home made jelly, ice cream, and home-made cordial, mixed up cordial. They didn't have soft drinks, because you see it wasn't that long after the War, and they didn't have things like today. Well, that was the party. Well... everybody partook. Oh, and by the way, I did not use the school toilets. I had a bike. I used to bike home for lunch every day. And, umm, as I say I... I doubt whether I used the school toilets three times the whole time the whole 10 years, five year I was at the school. I mean... so I didn't have to

Kay: And was that because of polio?

Lorraine: Oh, no.

Kay: Oh, just because, yeah.

Lorraine: No, because I had a bike, and I biked home for lunch, and partook at home if you know what I mean. [laughter] I used to go before I left home, I'd go at lunchtime, and I'd go when I went home. But that's just by the by, because people used to reckon you picked it up in the toilets. Well, after... after that school party, about six days later... three children all came down from polio. And they... now there may have been more because those three children all went to the same doctor, and all went to the same school, and all went to the same party. So, I mean obviously somebody who probably... they were either mixing the cordial, buttering the bread... ah, it wouldn't have been bread - I hated hundreds and thousands on bread. I like pikelets. I probably at my share of those. But, I mean somebody who handled the food must have been a carrier. And that's how I picked... that's how I know I got it, because... as I say, Valerie and I ended up in hospital together. Sort of, ah, our beds were back to back. And she was at the party, like the first time we'd seen each other for six weeks. I mean, we knew each other, but not that well. Well, anyway, about six days after the party, it was the Christmas... well, no it would have been less than six... a few days after the party, in Christchurch they had a department store called Hays, did you ever hear of Hays?

Kay: No.

Lorraine: It was a big department store. I think it was two stories... big building in Christchurch in those days. And it had a flat roof, and on the roof they had a little club for children, called Hays Junior League, and at Christmas time they used... and school holidays, they opened up their roof, and they had, now free merry-go-rounds, but they were the type... they weren't motorised, they were the type where you sat on the seats and you pedalled them and pedalled them round in circles. And they had those... umm, fancy mirror things you look at and you're fat and thin and short, and... umm, all other sort of things... clowns... I think they had free ice creams... at times, but not all the time. But the whole thing was free, and children... and they had a monthly magazine with competitions and prizes. And I was a very club member, and I used to go along. So we went along at... just before Christmas, oh Father Christmas was there... took us... my mother took us along, plus my brother who was nearly 9 months old at the time, the baby. And, umm... I was sort of you know, going round these various things, and all of a sudden I felt crook, I felt giddy. I couldn't even walk. I just collapsed. Now, what my mother had to do was she had to... to get back to the car, because she... you know, had the car parked out... there were no meters in those days, the car was parked downstairs down the road a bit... and, ah she had to put... me in the pushchair, it was a big old-fashioned cane pushchair and she had to carry the baby. She had to carry David, and she had to push me in the pushchair... and there was a lift of course, to get back to the car.

Kay: How old were you then?

Lorraine: 10.

Kay: 10, right.

Lorraine: I was a pretty small 10-year-old. And the... but they were very big pushchairs. Do you remember the big old-fashioned cane pushchairs?

Kay: Mmm, yes.

Lorraine: She had a cane pram... no, she didn't have a cane pram for David, she had a... ah, she might have, I can't remember, but anyway, she... I know it was a cane pushchair with sort of sides moved... a tall back thing and a... you know you face the child. But she pushed me... had to push me to the car to get to the car. Well then, on the way home we called into Nana's, that's my mother's mother, and Mum called on her and said look, she... I'd been taken crook, and there was a bit a polio scare on at the time and she said, "I have a suspicion Lorraine could be coming down with polio." She said, "Can I leave David here for three weeks?" And her mother said yes. And my grandmother was a fairly young active grandmother, and ah, loved children, and I mean... we used to sort of... well, Nana was only about six blocks away, and used to... in those days it was... for someone to come in and say, look can you take a 9-month-old baby for three weeks, you'd say yes. And ah, she left David there for three... well, just over the three weeks. Well, the doctor came, I think it was that day or the next day, and he said it was the first case he had seen that day and they all went... and all the cases went to the school break-up party.

13:11

The doctor said "The hospital's overcrowded." And they were not giving any treatment, and I was best kept at home, unless I had trouble breathing. Now, of course it was right on Christmas. Now, for Christmas I got what I really wanted - 10-year-old girl mind you - two little white mice. They were put on the table beside my bed in a small cage. On New Year's Eve, I was woken up by some cars driving round the street, blowing their horns, and people yelling "Happy New Year, Happy New Year!" They used to do it those days. They don't do it quite so much today, they just blow their horns and skid, but in those days they used to do that. And when I woke up, I couldn't get my breath, and I was having trouble breathing. So my parents rang the doctor... ah, just after midnight and he came out to see me... and he said "Ah, have to go to hospital." And he called the ambulance. And while they waited for the ambulance, Mum, Dad and the doctor went into the lounge and had drinks for the New Year.

[laughter]

We'd been under this doctor for years. In fact, even my children went to the same doctor. And, ah, anyway... while they were having their drinks, I was left alone in the bedroom. And for Christmas I got a little box... they used to make them, I think they had nine little chocolates in tiny little boxes. Do you remember those?

Kay: Yes, I do, yeah.

Lorraine: Well, I had this small box of chocolates, and it was beside my bed. So I opened up the chocolates, pulled open the drawer and tipped the chocolates loose in the drawer... reached over and picked up a mouse and put it in the box.

[laughter]

So our... when the ambulance arrived, I took my box with me, and everybody just... everybody just assumed I was taking some chocolates to eat. So when I got to the hospital, they took the box away from me and put it on a stand, but they gave it back to me later.

15:21

Now I had to have a lumbar puncture... it really hurt. It took three nurses to hold me down... and, umm, I never got in an iron lung... I should have gone in one, but they were all being used. After this, I was put in a bed and given back my box with the mouse. I was placed in a corridor, where I stayed for nearly three weeks, because all the rooms in all the isolation wards were full of polio cases. During the rest of the night, the mouse chewed it's way out of the box, so in the morning I told the nurse "There's a mouse in my bed." And she said, "No, don't be silly, there's no mice in the hospital." So then I showed her it was in my hand, and said, "This is Nora. She's a nice little mouse." And the nurse just about had a fit, and said, "Make sure you hang onto it. Don't let it go! I'll go and get a jar." And the nurse brought a jar and told me to put the mouse in the jar, and screwed on the lid. She then went to ring my mother, who came straight away to get the mouse, put it back in the cage, where it lived only about a five to 10 minute drive away from the hospital. And also Mum did have a car, which was rather unusual for a two-car family in those days. My paralysis got worse, and I couldn't walk or use my arms.

16:51

They had to actually feed me and I hated being fed. And I did not like the food. So Mum came every day and gave me food I liked, and I could eat with my fingers. Chicken drums, cake, cheese, chocolate... nice sandwiches. And because I was in the corridor, and not in the isolation ward, she could come and go as she wishes, because there was... they couldn't stop you. And also... Mum and Dad, they found a small wooden box. I think it was an old tool box or something, and they put a bit of wire netting on it, so it would fit in Mum's shopping bag, and some days she would bring the mouse back for me to play with after I'd eaten my lunch. [laughter] After two-and-a-half weeks, I was still in the corridor, no treatment, so Mum came to the hospital, with the doctor - the doctor came with her, that's how friendly the doctor was - and they arranged for me to go home. Mum found a retired nurse who was trained, and worked for Sister Kenny. Have you heard of her?

Kay: Yes, I have, yes.

Lorraine: Well, she was a retired nurse who had trained with her. And I went there and had weekly heat packs, exercise and massages for nearly one year. After that... that was as a private patient of course. After that, I would have heat treatment and exercise treatment for two or three months when I got stiff and sore and slow, for about four or five years afterwards. And that's when we used to... after that, Mum she used to have to drive me there and back and do all the chasing round, and I used to have a treatment, that they used to always go away... umm, my grandmother would have David again, of course. We wouldn't bother... I shouldn't say that, but we didn't bother with him. [laughter]

Kay: Oh! He was too little?

Lorraine: Well, I was never particularly fond of David, and the age... the age gap... I mean, 10 years was a big age gap. But actually my mother had another baby 18 years... when I was 18 years old...

Kay: Good heavens!

Lorraine: I had... we had the wedding booked... you know, my wedding was actually booked. Dates set, everything... the invitations weren't printed... and ah, the wedding had to be... the date had to be altered because of an unexpected. My mother was pregnant!

Kay: Oh... right! How funny.

[laughter]

Lorraine: I was very annoyed about that. My friends often had weddings hurried forward because they were pregnant.

Kay: Yes, exactly.

[laughter]

Lorraine: Mine was my mother decided to get pregnant and change the wedding day! But, as I say, umm... you know, I never really bothered with David. And as for my youngest brother, he was six months old when I got married. I was always more like an aunty to him. Because Michael was two years older than my daughter, and five years older than my son, so... [laughs]

20:01

Kay: Funny.

Lorraine: It was a mixed up family.

[laughter]

When I was working, I got a very sore right arm, and it was diagnosed as tennis elbow, you know just overuse. And I went through ACC. Now, ACC and I had never heard of Post-Polio Syndrome. It's only sort of become well-know in the last... well, 30 years... 30 or 40 years. And ACC were very suspicious because I only worked part-time. It was after I had the children, this was. And, umm... I only worked 16 hours a week, and they couldn't believe anyone could get repetitive strain injury from working 16 hours a week. And they sent me for all sorts of tests for... arthritis and various things, and x-rays. And in the end, they had to admit it was repetitive strain injury, and they paid for an operation to my elbow. But it took me over a year to recover, and I never ever managed to get back to work after that.

Kay: Ah, goodness. Right.

Lorraine: They... they paid me mind you, I think I was on big wages... $16 a week, 'cause I was on very high wages in those days, and only 16 hours a week. But I got that for about two years, and then they gave me a lump sum and just sort of tossed me on the rubbish heap, and that's what you do. But that... that's the only sort of... trouble I had with that. But, now I had two children, a girl and a boy... but because of my weak arms... and they were always weak... I couldn't really carry them. In fact I... 'cause every now and then you could drop something... and I was always scared of dropping them. So I had a... I got a small pram which I used all the time, of course... and I used to wheel them round the house. Like if I... like people might... when you, when you're going to the sink you might sort of ah... hold a baby on one arm and sort of do something, or some of these people put them in neck things these days, but I used to just wheel them round the house in the pram with me. And I managed... you learn to manage that way.

22:21

Now, in the 1980's my knees got very sore and I was having a lot of falls, 'cause I was always twisting my ankle, and I had knee braces. And I wore those for about 25 years, and they were very good, and they really helped. But the trouble was, they were too tight, and I got very, very bad... well they had to be tight to work... and I got very, very bad varicose veins from them, and I couldn't do them any more.

Kay: Did you know at the time that that could possibly be linked to polio, or was that still...?

Lorraine: No, the time the knees came, I knew it was linked to polio.

Kay: Oh, you did.

Lorraine: When I... when I had the elbow... operation, I didn't realise it was linked to polio. And I knew... now this sounds silly but the children were born before then, and I couldn't carry them, I knew that was linked to polio. It sounds silly, but...

Kay: Yeah, but that was more of a weakness, rather than a pain, yeah.

Lorraine: Yeah, it wasn't the pain, it was just a weakness... sort of... and I mean, I have never, I have always had difficulty putting my head up and washing my hair. Like, if I sit up... well, I just sit on a shower stool, or stand under a shower, I can wash my hair. But even sitting on a shower stall, I couldn't go like that... [demonstrates]

23:33

I mean, I've always had a very limited use, particularly of my left arm. But now my right arm is getting worse, too. [coughs] There's the varicose veins I've still got... I've still got bad varicose veins, but that's just one of those things. That is really linked to polio, because if I hadn't worn the braces, I wouldn't have got the varicose veins. Now, I've had both hips replaced, and I've had actually two surgeons, 'cause one retired and the next one came in, and both of them were astounded. Now, when they took the hips out... you know, they take them out and replace them with a metal one... my hips were the size of a 10-year-olds.

Kay: So they hadn't developed?

Lorraine: They hadn't grown since I was 10.

Kay: Ah, gosh.

Lorraine: And... and... of course actually I still have trouble when I sleep, because I... I can't sleep on my back because I've got a paralysed epiglotis, and I choke... I'm on a BiPAP machine as well, because I've got a paralysed... partly-paralysed diaphragm... but when you sleep on your hips, you can feel this bulge inside and it presses and hurts, because an artificial hip is bigger, because they don't make them the size of a 10-year-old, and if they did, they wouldn't be strong enough to hold the weight of an adult. Does that make sense?

Kay: Ah, of course.

Lorraine: And I've also had to have a disk in my back operated on, because of the... I'm slightly twisted, and the pressure on it. And actually it's going again, and I don't think... I said they can do it again, but the way the hospitals are going I don't think I'll get it done again, because the waiting lists are shocking. And, of course, now I'm 80... you know, I guess that's... dubious. Now, my feet are twisted from polio. Now, they're short... because my feet stopped growing when I was 10. I took a size three child's shoe when I... umm, had polio and my feet are still the same size. Hang on a second, I'll just put the heat down a bit. This room's... I'm in the back office kind of room, and I have the heater on, and it's getting a bit hot. Now, as I say my feet are twisted. Now, when I'm standing up like... you know like that [demonstrates] my big toe can't touch the ground.

Kay: Ah.

Lorraine: My feet are twisted. And I'm always inclined to go over on my ankles.

Kay: Yeah, 'cause you haven't got that balance, have you?

26:17

Lorraine: No. And both feet are the same. And also, I have to get my shoes made through orthotics. And that's the problem, now, because they're no longer making orthotic shoes in New Zealand. For years... oh... be about 10 years might be more than that, but some years ago, the hospital sold the orthotic department to the staff, who made the shoes and supplied the orthotics. But... the orthotic men... it was all men, of course, who were the ones who worked there and made the stuff, they did not take on any apprentices, they did not train any people, and when they retired, the Christchurch ones sold out to Auckland. The Wellington ones sold out, the Dunedin ones... they sold out to Auckland. And Auckland got quite big and still had... they had guaranteed contracts for the funding for shoes from Christchurch... ah, not from Christchurch, from the Government ... well, they sold the firm out to a South African firm, who sends in managers to each department, who lasts for a year. They photograph your feet, draw round bits of paper, and get them made in Hong Kong. Well, of course most... I would say 80% of people, probably, it works very well for, and they're quite happy with their shoes. But you see my feet are twisted, and when you stand up, they change. And... well, I had seven pairs of shoes, one after the other made. And they came back, and they put... I tried them on, and even the people in the orthotics department said, "No, you can't wear these. We'll get another pair made." And they order another pair. Well then... then of course the year will be up, and they another manager. So three managers and seven pairs of shoes, which were just imported and binned, because they're no use for anybody. And then I got... now a very nice South African... actually it was a dark, very hard accent to understand, South African and he... he said... what they would do is they would send my lasts over to Hong Kong. So, what they did was they sent my lasts over to Hong Kong. Hong Kong said, "We don't make shoes from lasts. We use computers." And posted my lasts back. Well, while they were post... while my lasts were going on a holiday... to cruise or flights to Hong Kong and back they made a rule that all... it was an order that all lasts and stuff was to be disposed of, and all lasts were to be dumped. But they'd all been dumped before mine came back, so mine got shoved in a corner and they were still there.

Kay: That's good.

Lorraine: Now, in Christchurch they have got one guy... ah, Brian, who's father was actually the head of the shoe department and we got on like that [demonstrates]. It could partly be too, because we were both members of the MG Car Club, but I mean I did know... I did know him a bit, and he actually used to... he loved designing shoes. He used to design shoes, and I got nice sandles and all sorts.

Kay: Oh, nice, yeah. [laughter]

Lorraine: And he knew I liked shoes, and he liked making shoes. And anyway, but all the instructions that went with my shoes, and the patterns got dumped unfortunately, 'cause... but they had the lasts. Well, his son works there, making them. And he's made me now, with the approval of this... current manager who has just gone back, about three weeks ago, to South Africa, but with his approval I have got three new pairs. I've got a brown pair, a navy pair and a black pair of shoes. And they're all in leather. And they're all hand-made by Ryan, and they all fit. And I got them Thursday last week, the last pair, the black pair, and I was told... from South Africa and there's orders for there's to be no more shoes made, and this is the last pair of orthotics shoes made in New Zealand.

Kay: Oh, goodness, so you've got to look after those then.

Lorraine: That's right. And they told me, "I've got your lasts in the corner with the label on. If worst comes to the worst, we might be able to... we might be able to put them through as a big repair." [laughs]

Kay: That's a good idea.

Lorraine: "Ah, and Lorraine, you pay $39 a pair for shoes. That's your prescription charge."

Kay: Ah, right. That's good.

Lorraine: And I had a pair of sandals, and I said to him, "Can you do anything with them?" And he said, "Well, we can re-sole them." And they have a special orthotic, they have to import them, they're like a shaped orthotic that goes inside your shoe. Well, these sandals had an orthotic glued on the top of them, so I... and they were sort of solid heels, but they were nice. And I though... they were about 13 years, 13 or 14 years old, so you can tell I'd been wearing them all that time in the summer and he said, "Look the leather's perfect, this bit's alright. I'll re-sole them." And they had to import it, because they no longer stocked them, they imported another orthotic so I got my sandals refurbished, too. [laughter]

Kay: Ah, dear, it's a bit of a mission, isn't it?

Lorraine: But... I feel sorry for the other people who have got the same problem as me, because they can't get shoes. And if you can't get shoes to walk in you can only use a wheelchair.

Kay: Yeah. It really changes your quality of life, doesn't it?

31:58

Lorraine: It does. And there's not much here now. Ah, I can't walk far, and I have to use a power chair inside. And I've got a little mobility scooter I use outside. I have trouble turning over in bed, and I'm very slow. And I can't drive now, because my leg doesn't stop, it's too weak to use the brake. And my arms are too weak to manage hand controls, so I'm really stuffed as far as that goes.

Kay: Ah, dear.

Lorraine: Well, that's the end of the, umm... is that what you wanted to know?

Kay: Yes, that's been a huge impact for you, hasn't it?

32:38

Lorraine: It has. And now, I'm one of the few alive... there's a few more... who actually remember having polio. So many people now had polio between... before the age of three, and they don't really remember it, and they don't remember life before.

Kay: That's right. I've spoken to quite a few from the group... you know, the Zoom group and a lot of them have said that some of their memories are received memories from their parents, or... you know, just... just what they've been told afterwards. Umm... but unlike you, a lot of them don't remember. They do remember later when they had treatment at the hospital. And some of them went to the Duncan Home... and had treatment there, and they do remember that, and they have a lot of friends from the Duncan Home. 'Cause that was one thing I often ask, is... umm, how were you treated at school. Did people treat you differently at school? Were you able to carry on at school, and...?

33:28

Lorraine: Well, I didn't... well, I never managed to get on with PhysEd, and I was never picked on a team for basketball, or netball, as they played in those days. And I couldn't play rounders, which we played in those days, because I couldn't run. And before... when I was about eight or nine... in Christchurch, they had a ladies group called Bucket's Gym... Have you heard of that? It's a very old one. Now I say, that was in the 1940's, before your time.

Kay: Right... a little bit before my time. [chuckles]

Lorraine: Now they used to have... sort of acrobats and things, and they used to have a show once a year. It was only girls... it was girls only, and run by two old maids. Or two young... they were run by sisters, but they weren't, ah... but they were probably only in their late twenties, do you know what I mean? But to me they were old maids. [laughter] Oh, when my son went to kindergarten, he came home and we said, now how do you like kindergarten? "Oh," he said, "it's lovely, and the teacher's a lovely old lady." She'd had her 21st the week before! [laughter] So, I mean, when I say old maids at the age of eight, you know what I mean. [laughter]

Kay: That's right.

Lorraine: But, anyway we used to have like pyramids... you know, you used to have like two, and then you'd... sort of get up there and you have a wee one on top. Well, I used to be the wee one on top. And the one thing that was helpful... and once I had polio I couldn't even do anything like that, I had to leave... but the one thing that was helpful, was... before you were allowed to go on a pyramid or anything, you had to fall. Now, that sounds stupid... you would go into the gym... and they had like... straw... well they might have been straw, or charcoal or what they were, but they were mats, you know abou that thick. And the first thing the teacher would say... ah, used to say is, "Right, go in there and fall three times." You go over to the mat, you fall, then you flip over and fall. And you had to learn how to... now fall on your side. Because you had to learn how to relax and fall, because if you were on the pyramid of three or four girls, and you fell... you had to know how to fall and not to hurt yourself. And although it's sort of... [laughs] well 70 years ago, it's helpful. You never fall and put... now people fall and put their hand out and damage their wrist. When you don't... you roll into a ball and you fall... does that make sense?

Kay: Yes, you've overcome the instinct, and you learn to fall... so you now fall and roll, kind of thing.

Lorraine: You learn... Yes, I mean if you wanted to advance into a pyramid or learn triple flips and things - I never got that far, but... I was up in the pyramids... well of course, you see if a child fell off that pyramid, they'd just go splat or put their hand out and break their wrist. So you learnt to ball up, or...

Kay: Yeah, so it was a valuable lesson for you.

Lorraine: It was very handy. [laughs] Because I've, although I've had lots and lots of falls, I've never broken anything, and probably that's why.

Kay: Yeah.

Lorraine: And there's one other person in the Polio Group, aged... some years ago... See, well of course, one thing he said, "I used to do..." I think it was wrestling... wrestling or something, one of those type of things. And he said, "And you learn how to fall." And he said that's... he said that was very handy when you fall from polio. And I said to him, "Well I learned the same thing when I was eight" ... eight or nine... coming up from about eight to 10. I said it's the one thing I learnt going to a girl's gym... how to fall.

Kay: Yeah. Thank goodness.

37:09

Lorraine: It's handy. But it's still very depressing when you find it hard to get out of a chair, and... you can't see you know. I used to like doing gardening, but I can't get down. I have trouble now... well, there's some silver beet and I have to get my husband to help pick it, because I can't get down to cut it. And our problem is now, we moved here about 22 years ago to the beach... and, ah actually the house... the place was cheaper than what we were looking at in town, but we have actually got a one-acre section and a five-bedroomed house for two old people.

Kay: Mmm, so it's a lot to look after, isn't it?

Lorraine: Well, my husband's managing it, and I've said to him... and he doesn't want to move, and I said well... while he manages the garden we will stay. But as soon as it gets too much for him, we have to go. In fact, I even still go away in a caravan.

Kay: Ah, good on you. [chuckles]

Lorraine: Now what we... what we do is, we have the caravan. We park the mobility scooter beside the door, and I get out the door, and I put my hand on the on the handlebar of the scooter to get down the steps, and I scoot away to the toilets. We make sure the campground's got mobility access and all that sort of thing. And I do this and come back... we don't go away now for more than three or four days. We take the cat. She comes too. We sort of manage that.

Kay: Ah, so it's your job to get the milk, presumably?

Lorraine: No. [laughs] Well, actually we get that out of the fridge. We go to the supermarket once a week.

[laughter]

38:49

Kay: And how did you get on in the in the earthquakes.

Lorraine: Well, we never lost power.

Kay: Oh, that's good.

Lorraine: You see, Christchurch had it very bad. Actually, our son... he worked he's an electrician and he was in charge of the pumps... he works for the pump... Christchurch City Council, in the water works, in the pumping stations, and he was one of the last ones to get water on, and that was his job, was getting the pumps and the waters connected. [laughs] And people used to say to him, "Well can't you increase the pressure here?" And he'd say "Well, what are you complaining about?" He'd say, "I haven't got any water at all!"

Kay: Yes, at least you've got water!

Lorraine: And they used to come out here about, you know, three times a week to have their showers and do their washing. And my daughter's in Christchurch, and she came out. Ah, actually the whole... my daughter's family moved out for a while. 'Cause she had four children and... she had triplets and one a year younger.

Kay: Oh my goodness!

Lorraine: She had... she had four children under 14 months.

Kay: Wow! That's a lot.

Lorraine: Fertility treatment that went wrong.

Kay: Ah, right.

Lorraine: And then they thought... It's happened  quite a bit... that because it took all the treatment to get the first lot, it wouldn't happen again, but it did.

Kay: Ah. That often happens. That's often the way. It's like you're body learns.

Lorraine: Things learn. So they did it themselves the next time. And that was the end of it. [laughter]

Kay: Ah, so they're gonna have a house full.

Lorraine: Yes, so they all moved in.

Kay: So that would have been... it's lucky you had a big house.

Lorraine: It was lucky, yeah. And the power never went off.

Kay: Oh, that's good.

Lorraine: And also it's a big house and we've got four toilets, so when the family... ah, they had no water, my son, when they used to come out. And they all used to come out busting to go, so we all gotta go when we get there. There was four of them, and each one went to a different toilet.

Kay: Ahh... hello mum, we're just... yeah. [laughter]

Lorraine: And then they'd all have a shower, do their washing. [laughter]

40:49

Kay: Goodness me. Well, just going back to when you were a child again, do you remember anything about how your mum might have reacted to polio. Was she on edge about it, or you know...? Do you remember anything like that?

Lorraine: Well, she looked after me well, and she did a lot of... well, she came up to the hospital every day with bits and pieces. And she knew... she knew I was very wrapped up in my Christmas mouse, and she didn't like mice either, so she was very good letting me have him.

Kay: She must have been such a good mother! [laughter]

Lorraine: They were tiny little mice. A bit of a historic thing. When I went to high school, 'cause I wasn't very active... and I couldn't do sports. But the seniors some of the senior pupils, they used to have what they called laboratory assistants, and they used to have their lunch in the laboratory and get the laboratory things done. And the one that I was in had the rats... the white rats. Well, they... when they... at Christmas time... shorter holidays I think one of the teachers or people used to look after them, but Christmas time they used to ask the children, if they could, to take one home to look after. So I took home a white... a baby white rat to look after. Ah, he was sweet! Little ratty.

Kay: Yes, I used to have rats. I loved them, yeah.

Lorraine: Yeah, well I kept him. But I didn't... that was the other... it was a boy, so they didn't have... if it had been a girl for breeding use, so they wouldn't have to have him back. But if he came back, they were just going to dissect him, so I said no. I kept him.

Kay: So you rescued him.

Lorraine: Now, when we got engaged, my husband, you know George said to my father, you know, "We're planning to get married." Do you know what my father's reply was? "If you take her, you take the bloody rat!" [laughter]

Kay: Love me, love my rats!

Lorraine: Well, just had the one, but fortunately though, he was about six years old, and he died just before we got married. [laughter]

Kay: He had a good life then, yeah.

Lorraine: But we'd had him for years. He used to be in sort of a big bird cage, and it had sort of bent wire where the bird feeders clipped in, but he didn't use them. And we'd had him for about two years until somebody went up in the night to go to the bathroom, and saw the rat running round the house. And then they realised, for two years, this rat had got out every night and ran round the house, because he could get out where the food containers were. [laughter]

Kay: And then went back again. But nobody knew!

Lorraine: Nobody knew. And the cats used to go like that [demonstrates clawing motion] down the wires of the bird cage. And the rat used to go boing... and nip them between the claws. And then my mother went mad because the cats would walk around the house putting little spots of blood on the...

[laughter]

Kay: Oooh, that'll teach them!

Lorraine: They did learn after a while, like... [laughter]

Kay: [laughs] Yeah... yeah. Well, I think... that's been wonderful talking to you. Thank you so much.

Lorraine: Is this what you wanted?

Kay: Yes, that is. It's... really... this is... the project's about people's memories, really. We've got lots of different projects going on, which is why I'm really keen to talk to you about The Hermitage. But it's really... we thought it would be valuable to gather those memories about polio, because we keep hearing how COVID is unprecedented, well it's not.

Lorraine: No... no.

44:29

Kay: It's all happened before. And we thought it would be interesting to compare people's experiences then with you know, what we're going through now. So, umm, I don't know if there's anything you wanted to say about that?

Lorraine: Well, I mean people are going on about this... COVID, but I mean, it's so similar, and what I'm wondering is now... they're talking about long COVID aren't they?

Kay: That's right. And that's why it's interesting to compare with this post-polio, isn't it?

Lorraine: Yeah. But when we... when I had polio, and people had no idea that... how long it was. And now, I've also heard... that the... Sister Kenny, she brought in this massage and extra treatment in the last years. Now, George had an uncle, my husband, who... who had polio, sort of in the... in the 30's. I mean, he... I mean, as I say... I met him as an older man, 'cause he had polio and he used to walk around with a stick and a bit of a limp. But in those days they never had massage, they never did exercise.

Kay: No.

Lorraine: Now, I have read two opinions that... now, polio affects the motorneurons. Now, you have limited number of motorneurons. Now, a lady had so many eggs, and when her eggs are finished, she's no longer fertile. When your eggs are gone... you can't. You can't have any more children. Well, apparently with the motorneurons, your body has so many, and so many replacement ones, and once all the motorneurons are gone you're buggered.

Kay: Oh, right.

Lorraine: Now, what happened was... and I think this is true... Sister Kenny did all this massage, exercises, and all the rest of it, and got people back better than... years ago, you had polio, and that's how you stayed. But she didn't. She did us all this treatment, all this exercise, rubbing arms, massaging you up, and exercising and... you know... and what she did was, she exercised up and you got the reserve motorneurons going... and built up... very big, overblown motorneurons. Now, people who were very old weren't so bad. But people who were younger, particularly these ones who don't even remember polio... because they've been pushed, muscles exercised... and pushed and pushed, they've overdone it. So, they're motorneurons have run out, and now they're old there's nothing there. And I believe that is my problem, because you see... I had the Sister Kenny treatment. Every year I had about three months' more massage and exercises and things... to do. And then I had a fairly active life, where perhaps if I'd taken things easier, I mightn't have run out of motorneurons.

Kay: Ah, right. So do you think perhaps if would have been better not to have had the massage.

Lorraine: Yes. And just had the heat treatment, which does relax the pain, and relaxes the stiffness. But the massage brings up the motorneurons, and it brings up the reserve ones.

Kay: Yes, so you've basically borrowed on your future supplies.

Lorraine: We... I've used... I used up my... motorneurons that I should be using now, I used up when I was... after polio, because they brought them on, exercised me up and pushed... pushed them up. Does that make sense?

Kay: Yes, it does, yeah. And that's a really interesting perspective. And it's not one I've heard before, so thank you for that. Yeah.

Lorraine: I have seen it in several... more than one... more than one medical opinion of that. You know, it's sort of, umm... as I say, I think you could probably say it's a bit like a female with their eggs. I mean, if you have the chemicals and they...

Kay: Yes, and brain cells. You only get certain... they only renew for a certain period, don't they? And then they stop. So as we get older, we have less.

Lorraine: Yes. Yes, I think that's...

Kay: So the reserves... the reserves are gone, yeah.

Lorraine: I really think that is my... the trouble. Well... do you... does it sound logical to you?

Kay: It does, very much so. I mean I'm not a medial expert, but certainly that does make a lot of sense.

Lorraine: Nor am I.

Kay: Yeah. But certainly that does make a lot of sense, yeah. And the thing is... I hope... a part of what we're doing this for, is it's a record for history... but maybe researchers in the future can have a look... you know, have a look at people's experiences and sort of fit it all together, and maybe produce something useful for the future. So, you know, if your story helps people in the future, then that's a really valuable contribution, isn't it?

Lorraine: Yeah. But, I mean, I have met people years ago... because I mean, I'm getting older myself, now I'm 80...

Kay: You look well for 80, I have to say. [laughter]

Lorraine: But I mean people who had polio before Sister Kenny... I mean, everybody... she revolutionised... changed it completely. It's a bit like going back before the motor car. You know what I mean, or before TV. I mean, life changed after TV. People used to do... play games... sing songs... I mean... I can remember life before TV, and it was entirely different. You went outside at night. You didn't come in to watch the news, or... you know, watch Coronation Street, or... I don't watch that, but I mean, you know, I mean... people sit down and they revolve their life... if they're not watching TV, they're watching Netflix or they're... busy playing games on their... on their phones.

Kay: It does change lives, yeah.

Lorraine: It cheeses me off... people come to visit you and they sit there.... on their phones. You know, why the hell are you wasting my time? [laughter] I mean, I didn't want to see you playing your phone. I'd love to talk to you. But you know, it's sort of...  but if you say anything, they'd probably think, "Huh, she doesn't want to see us." But ah... before, as I say... that was... it's a life-changer now. I mean, years ago, you went to someone's place and you talked, or you went out and looked at the flowers in the garden, or... you went and looked... well I've got an aviary with birds here, so I can't get to it... I have to use my scooter to do it now, but... I mean, you had other interests, and you did other things, and people came and you showed them your hobbies or... Umm, and I feel that with Sister Kenny. She changed life like that. After her, everybody exercised. But if you read some of the older books and stories, or you ever knew older people... they didn't degenerate much. They had polio. They recovered, and they stayed on an even keel. Nowadays...

Kay: So that may be why they didn't know about post-polio - because it didn't necessarily happen? Because...

Lorraine: No, that's what I... there was no post-polio. They deteriorated a bit.

Kay: That's a really interesting perspective, yeah.

Lorraine: They got tired a bit. They aged a bit more than the average person. But they didn't collapse. Like, I feel I've just collapsed. And there's quite a few like me, who I mean... I'm 80, but I feel as though I'm 101 almost. And in fact it cheeses me off. You see people... you know, who are older, and you see them on TV. "Oh, I'm 100. I've done this, I've always played golf, or I've always gone for walks." Well, I'd love to go for a walk, but I mean... it... but the older ones, they had polio... and they may have... sort of, well they had polio, and they picked up for a short distance, and they... went along like that [demonstrates]. Now you have polio... you get picked up like that... you go like that for a while, and then you go boom... down.

Kay: Mmm. I've spoken to another gentleman from the group, and he thought he was pretty much cured. He thought he had virtually no after-effects of polio. He was a very sporty person. And he went for many, many... well, quite a few decades, just thinking that was that. And then all of a sudden it hit him. So, you know, he's definitely used his reserves. Because he was fit and active, and... and you know, he thought polio was over.

Lorraine: That's what I mean, they've over... they've used up... they don't... they don't... realise that you've got a finite supply in a definite little pot of motorneurons, if that's the word you use. But it's like your brain cells, I mean once... if you've had a bad stroke, or something's happened to your brain cells, that's it. Once they're dead...

Kay: Mmm, you can't get them back.

Lorraine: You can't get them back. Well, the motorneurons are the same. I mean, the muscles are there, but the message can't get through.

Kay: No, no. That's such an interesting way of looking at it, yes. Thank you for sharing that.

Lorraine: It's like having a disconnected phone.

Kay: Yes, yes!

Lorraine: It's like having a heater not plugged in. I mean...

Kay: And you can't get the wires back.

Lorraine: You know, it's... well, that's what I feel it is. Do you think that could be right?

Kay: Yeah, that's a really interesting perspective.

54:29

Lorraine: And I'm wondering with these ones with this, ah Coronavirus, they reckon some of them have what they call long, umm...

Kay: COVID

Lorraine: COVID. What are they going to be like in 70 years' time? I mean, it's 70 years since I had polio. Now, the older ones probably won't have it, because they won't live long enough. But the children that get it, and apparently... in New Zealand and some other countries... and some of these countries have not got money to care for people if they do deteriorate. Well, now, I needed a wheelchair. Now, before the earthquake in Christchurch people used to get supplied from the hospital nice wheelchairs. I don't say flash ones, but they supplied them with power chairs, and they measured them up, and gave them the right size and... the right... you know, the one they needed... not travel chairs... good ones, that you could go on the bus, go to town, round the house. When I needed one, "Sorry, we don't supply chairs now." I could not... I could not get a power chair. I bought a second-hand one off TradeMe. It's actually proved not to be a particularly good buy, because ah, well it's just not very satisfactory. But we did buy a little mobility scooter. You know... you know the shop kind people ride round, you know? Well, it's about a third of the size of that. It's lower and smaller, and the seat lifts off like that. And the handlebars, you click a wee switch and it flips down. And it breaks off before the seat part and then the battery pack lifts off, and it breaks down to, umm, four pieces.

Kay: My mum had one exactly like that, yeah.

Lorraine: And it goes in the boot of the car.

Kay: That's right, yeah.

Lorraine: And I can... and it's quite strong, too, 'cause I can ride it round the back yard.

Kay: Quite sturdy.

Lorraine: Very sturdy, very good. I've had it for about three years, and I just... that's the one I use all the time. The other one I got, I only use it from the bedroom and around the house, because the... I've got a ramp now. We've got a big veranda outside, and a umm, you know, concrete patio. And we have barbecues in the summertime, and I can ride it outside on the concrete, but it won't go on the grass. And we've got a shingle drive, so it wouldn't go on that.

Kay: That's right, yeah.

Lorraine: But the scooter does. That goes on the shingle.

Kay: Yeah, they're like four-wheel drives, aren't they? [laughs]

Lorraine: They're good, yeah. But, as I say you're very limited, though. But that's the whole thing with this hospital. I mean, I... I honestly thought I would get one, and they used to supply them. And they say no, after the earthquake, they spent their money rebuilding. Then after that shooting, they had to, they cost them too much money, because even the patients, they got scattered around New Zealand. Do you know how they sent patients to various parts? The Christchurch ward had to pay the other hospitals for looking after them, so now they have no money, and the Christchurch people can't get anything. You know.

Kay: Right. It's a crazy situation isn't it? Crazy system.

Lorraine: Well, yes. I mean...

Kay: Doesn't make a lot of sense.

Lorraine: [laughs] No.

Kay: I wonder if it will change when they have these new...

Lorraine: Well, I don't know, but the amount of money going into being spent on boards and things... I mean... and how long it will take to filter down, if it ever does filter down.

Kay: Mmm. Let's hope it does, yeah.

Lorraine: Well, it's not good the way it is.

Kay: No. Something had to change.

Lorraine: And I had to wait a year, nearly, for each of my three operations, and now they reckon it's about a two year wait.

Kay: Oh, gosh, yeah.

Lorraine: And when you're in pain, it's not good.

Kay: No.

Lorraine: And I did deteriorate a lot... after I had breast cancer at 77 of all things.

Kay: Oh, my goodness, right.

Lorraine: And I deteriorated after that quite a lot.

Kay: Yes.

Lorraine: But, umm...

Kay: Gosh, you've been through it, haven't you?

Lorraine: Yeah. [laughs softly] And I've got bad eyes. I've got macular degeneration, and I've had cateracts done. And I... but at least with... it cost me a fortune, but at least I can see.

Kay: Good, yeah.

Lorraine: So, yeah I had that dry macular degeneration, and everything was double... double vision... you couldn't see. Even TV was like double exposure, do you know what I mean?

Kay: Ah, no, that's annoying isn't it? Yeah.

Lorraine: Do you remember the old Box Brownies, and they used to have photographs... you know, with double exposure, and you couldn't see anything? Well, everything was like that.

Well, I think... It was wonderful talking to you, and I'm really happy you were able to share that with us. And I just want to thank you so much for taking part in this project, because I think it's really valuable.

[Recording ends]